What is "good enough" casting for CAS shooting

[Sespe Badger]

So today I fired up the lead pot and cast a bunch to replace my empty supply.  As usual, it took me awhile to get things running smooth.  I took the time at the end to sort out the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. 

Here's some of the Bad and Ugly I pulled out.  About 10% of my casting ended up back in the pot because it looked like these.


I'm not trying for long-range accuracy here.  Am I being too picky on any of the above?  To me they are all sub-standard and need to be re-melted.  Would anyone shoot these, or would they all be reborn?  The only one that might be marginal to me is the second from the right.

[Dalton Masterson]

I would chuck them all back in, as the cussing I will do when I lube and size them will remelt them anyway. On my luber, any little cut or void, will fill the bottom of my luber, under the bullet, and make a mess. Its easier for me to have a perfect bullet, and throw the iffy ones back.
Kind of like fishing, ya always throw some back.
DM

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

If the bands and base are completely bore-sealing, and they don't seem too lop-sided, I separate out the less than perfect for practice ammo.

Frankly, even my practice ammo seems to hit the target if I do my part, at least up to about 15 yards where most CAS targets are located.

BTW;  Those pictured seem a bit dodgy to me, especially #2 & #3!

[Adirondack Jack]

I tend to be a stickler for "pretty" bullets.  When casting "delicate" bullets like the EPP, I drop em in water so they don't damage each other.  Other types get dropped onto a folded up towel that gets turned frequently to prevent dings.

Recently I culled some less-than-perfect examples from a lot I sent off to a pard.  Since I needed to load for a shoot and had no time to cast, I shot the culls.  If the culls had a complete base and no dings out of the driving bands (so they'd lube properly and have no blowby issues) I saved em to shoot.  Wrinkled noses don't make a lick of difference at CAS range

I know a commercial caster who shoots nothing but "rejects" for his own use, and he places highly at most matchs. 


BTW, if yer bullets are often wrinkled, turn the heat up.

[Howdy Doody]

From the looks of your picture pard it is a wonder that the sprue cut off. I have to say your mold isn't hot enough for those babies.
I get going pretty fast by pouring in the first cavity and then discard. Pour in the first two cavities and discard, then three and so forth. By the time I have my six gang molds going on all six cylinders the sprue is cutting off nicely and I am getting good looking bullets. I tend to run my pots hot. I like my bullets slightly frosty and they shoot just fine and with the hotter pot I have less issues.
Basically your lead/moulds are too cold on the ones in the picture. I have cast a lot of the PRS bullets and they shoot fine from wheelweights. I dump my mould out onto an old towel and air dry myself.

[hellgate]

On several of those bullets it looks like the mold blocks weren't lined up. Those I'd pitch back into the melt. Otherwise if the bases were complete, they would go into my "C" category. Less than perfect are Bs and the good ones are my As. I put a red mark from a permanent pen on the case head of the Cs and use them for the short pit/close rifle targets.

[Dick Dastardly]

The bullet in the center has the mold halves out of location.  That means that one or more location pin is not doing it's job.  The halves will line up perfectly if the pins and sockets engage.  Look at the location pins and make sure one of 'em isn't pushed back too far to engage the socket.  If it is, gently drive it back into position.  If the problem persists, send the mold back to LEE and they will fix it for free.  LEE has a 100% no BS guarantee.

In general, it looks like your metal was running too cool when these bullets were cast.  Also, they look like 100% lead.  If so, you're wasting money.  Mix them 50-50 with WW metal.  Run your pot around 750° F.  Also, I don't know how clean the mold was when you started, but if in doubt take a tooth brush, dish soap and hot water and scrub it again.  Then, re-smoke with a hardwood splint.  Kitchen matches, candles and oil lamps have too much oil in the smoke.  Last, put a tiny bit of lube on the location pins and all the hinge parts.

Expect a couple of "bad" pours when you first start, but you should get very good well formed uniform bullets within Six pours.

Give me a call if you continue to have problems.  It's more fun to shoot the best ammo we can make.

DD-DLoS

[Noz]

I cast hot and fast. When finished with a run, I set and pick out the "less than perfect". I don't shoot less than perfect because they offend me. In all actuality the ones that are wrinkled but have a good base are probably as good as a perfect bullet. The base being the most critical part of the whole.

I would not shoot the pictured bullets.

[Arcey]

If one more opinion matters......

All I look for in a CAS bullet is a filled base. Sometimes when I'm at the lube/sizer I gottah chuckle at some. I'd never used some them things when I was shootin' other games.

[Springfield Slim]

I hate to sound mean, but thoses are some of the worst cast bullets I have ever seen. PLEASE call me and we can get you casting quality bullets in no time. 408 356-5031  If I can do it, most anybody can.

[Bryan Austin]

I am going to bookmark this page. When I get equiped to do my own casting....I will bug the T-total crap outta you guys! 

[Goatlips]

Badger, don't bother remelting them, just save them for when you're out of boolits and for some reason are unable to cast more.  You'll be surprised that they'll work just fine for our cowboy targets, close as they are.  MHO, most will disagree.  Just sayin'.

Goatlips

[Springfield Slim]

My car will work with the space saving spare on one of the wheells too, but that isn't the proper way to do things. It isn't that hard to cast very nice bullets, just takes some time and experience. I do thousands a week, so I have a little bit of experience, and am more than happy to share this experience. Hate to see people doing low quality work and getting discouraged when higher quality is just a step or two away.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I'd listen to Springfield Slim, Mr. Badger.  He is a commercial caster and KNOWS of what he speaks.

I cast my BigLube boolits hotter than most.  Somewhere around 800-850 degrees.  Yes, they look a bit frosty.  Does that affect them?  Nope.  The extra heat causes the frosty look - which does a great job of holding the lube!  Also, the hotter temp tends to (for some reason I  can't explain) make the bullets more consistent weight.

As to the mould halves not lining up, I had a bit of a problem with my Lee moulds; the halves weren't always touching perfectly, therefor similar to not lining up.  I called DD and then LEE to find out about returning the mould for new.  During the chat with the LEE rep, he asked how I casted.  I told him and then he asked how hard I held the handles together.  Well, it seems that if you grasp them tightly (I used a death grip, almost) it tends to warp the line-up of the mould halves!  There was the fix.  I just hold them firmly- NOT like a drowning swimmer might hold on to their rescuer!


Happy casting.

[Springfield Slim]

Steel Horse: The high heat allows you to cast properly filled out bullets, instead of some filled and some not, hence the consistent weights. I prefer to cast at about 650 and just cast faster to keep the mould heat up to snuff. It is the mould temp and not the lead temp that determines proper fillout. Either way works but the lower temp allows me to cast more per hour as the higher temp takes too much time to cool. It is all in the timing.

[Howdy Doody]

Pouring lead in a cold mold does make for bad fill out and worse yet a sprue cutter that isn't warm will really ruin any chance of a fast startup. Ask me how I know. OK, I'll tell you. I have done the unthinkable, unthinkable for you, but not me of course. I have broken the handle for the cutter clean in two.
Well, I am a quick study and you can bet I won't do that again. I lost the whole casting session, had to take the dang thing to work and grind and braze it together. So, what did I learn? You have to take a little time to get things going. Get your pot up to temp. A thermometer is nice, but you figure on the thermostat dial what temp you want to run steady and mark it. I bought a Lyman thermometer and have used it a couple times when I was learning. Now I don't know where it is.
Mold prep on a Lee is worthwhile too. Neversieze is a good product that acts like a lube. I put some on my alignment pins and the pivot bolt for the sprue cutter. There is another thing I learned too. Take and set out about 4 really well filled out bullets. Then drill about an 1/8" hole a ways into the base at the center. Insert a sheet metal screw, preferably with a phillips head. Now with a cold mold, you take a bullet with a screw in it and you wet it with water and shake a little Ajax powder on it. Clamp the bullet in one of the mold cavities close the mold, flip aside the sprue plate and spin it slowly with a power drill. This smoothes those aluminum molds really nice. Go to the next hole and same procedure. I can do a new mold with just a couple bullets, but have some spares is good. Then clean mold with water and toothbrush. Smoke it with wooden matches or not even at all.
So, what does this do? Well, it gets rid of the tooling marks for one thing, uniforms each cavity for another and what I really do it for is that the bullets drop like crazy when you are casting. No bumping, tapping or having to smoke the mold for release. Works for me. There are a zillion tricks.
Another thing I do when prepping is stake the pins. I don't know if that is really necessary, but I do. You have to smooth the dimple you make with the center punch though. Drilling and pinning the sprue cutter stud is another thing I do that most don't, but it never loses it's adjustment.

[Springfield Slim]

HD: I stake all my pins before I ever use the mould. I haven't been lapping the mulds, haven't found it to be necessary yet. Maybe I should try a couple, I may be surprised. I have set screwed a few moulds, mostly the ones I use the most. Some times the sprue pivot will work forever, sometimes it will loosen up right away, no telling. As for keepers, here is a pic of 4 rejects. From left to right,1- bad fillout on base  2- bid fillout on driving band below crimp grove    3-dented base from running too hot and hitting another bullet on dropout, and 4- a deformation on the side of the bullet.   All of these probably would have worked fine at cas distances, but they are rejects to me

[Howdy Doody]

I like the frosty bullets too Slim. Seems that running my pot and mold hot makes for so few problems. Frosty to me means good and I can really cast a bunch of 'em in a hurry. The only thing that slows me down is getting so hot that the sprue smears, then I grab another mold and get after it again. It is nice to have multiple molds if you cast a bunch. I do cast a bunch, in a lot of calibers, but that is because I not only cast for myself, but for Rowdy Yates too. We worked a deal and I have his pot and molds, he digs me up lead and I do the casting. He has White Lightning do the lubing. He just can't do the casting himself any more. Between his calibers and mine, I guess I cast about 6 calibers, but in .45 I cast PRS, EPP, ROA and another design.
That is as much casting as I can handle and it really is a lot, so I don't know how you can do it to cast as many as you do.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

With the common 1 & 2 cavity moulds, I use two at a time, alternating after the fill to let the lead solidify. They can be different, the trick is to make good use of the time it takes for the sprue to cool.

With gang moulds, hollow point, or hollow base moulds  have to go one at a time, but watch the sprue "freeze" and then wait for a short count before opening them.  If you hurry too fast you will have to go out of production to clean the smear off, & that is NOT EASY!

I like frosty bullets too.

Like a lot of manual skills, casting takes a while to get the knack.  But when you do get it going well, then "7734 upside down", you wonder what all the anguish was about.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I would probably have dumped them all back in the pot to melt again. Yeah, they will probably shoot well enough anyway, but they are pretty ugly. But the question is, did you cast some that looked that bad all through your casting session, or just at the beginning? When I start out casting the first few bunches often look like that. Particularly the second from the left and the one all the way to the right. They have those 'creases' in them because the mold was not hot enough and the lead did not completely fill the cavity fast enough. It looks to me like your mold was not hot enough. If your whole casting session looked like that, you need to tweek the temperature a little bit. Do you have a casting thermometer? It really helps in getting good bullets. I cast hot too, up around 900 degrees. At that temp, I get good bullets, even out of pure lead. After 4 or 5 molds full my molds are usually hot enough that they don't look like that any more.

And maybe it is something funny about the photo, but the one in the middle really looks weird. Like Dick sez, it looks like the pins did not line up and the mold halves were out of alignment. Maybe it is just a weird angle though.