Are they Armies or Navies?

[Riot Earp]

Interesting thread from TheFiringLine forum:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=309931

I didn't know such guns existed.

[Fingers McGee]

The pictures on the other thread intrigued me; so, I had to do some research.  They appear to be a rare variation of the 1860.   The New Model Holster Pistol of Army Caliber could be had with a number of options.  They were advertised with 7.5 or 8 inch barrels; , with steel handle strap, brass, plated, or blued trigger guard; and the same arm with "attachable carbine breach".  They could also be had with square back trigger guards.  Here's an ad from the period:



[A History of the Colt Revolver; Haven & Belden; 1940]

And from Wilson's Colt, an American Legend.  "A scarce variation dating from the first year of manufacture is the fluted cylinder version, identified in the original shipping ledgers as the "cavalry" model.  To the confusion of the novice collector, specimens were made in 7.5 and 8 inch barrel lengths, and with Navy and Army-size grips.  Another scarce and sought after type is the Army with round, roll engrqved cylinder, the Navy-size grip, 7 1/2" barrel, Hartford barrel address marking, no channel in the capping cutout (on right side of the frame), and silver plated brass gripstraps.  Only fifty five were made."

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee

[John E. Ringo]

It's an attractive configuration, both fluted and non-fluted. I'd sure like to make one. 

[Roosterman]

I put navy grips on all of my 1860 army's, the standard army grips just don't work for me.

[Alabama]

Those are very neet guns in the pics , thanks for pulling those over from the Fireing line. I do like the fluted cylinders even if they are not as strong as the solid ones on originals . Nice touch of good tastefull stlying it adds anyway . I guess back in the day a few blew up from large powder charges so they stopped doing that . Glad modern metals can handle it now though and the Uberti version is very nice to look at at , wish I had one , will eventually . So is the Pietta half fluted cylinder version Dixie sells now too .
Compairing the new 1860 I bought last month and these with Navy grips frames , I think from looks and feel I still like my Navies grips better . The 60 just feels strange to me , but that's me not the gun , no harm or shame on Colt for that one . I would also like to put some Navy grips on an 1860 , but I do believe the one I bought in the Darksider pic threade is going to stay like it is for historical reasons and of course to have something pretty standard for the time too . But , I do like the idea that Roosterman has put Navy grips on all of his anyway . More reasons to buy more guns , cannot go wrong there 
I think everyone could use a new ARVY or NARMY in thier collection nonetheless

[Riot Earp]

There's something about that 7.5" barrel mated with the big cylinder ... makes the gun look meaner somehow. Hard to believe half an inch would make a difference, but it seems to.

I've always thought that Pietta's '51 Navy in .44 looked meaner than their 1860.

[Cuts Crooked]

I've always thought that Pietta's '51 Navy in .44 looked meaner than their 1860.

Yeah they do! I've always liked the feel of a 51 grip frame when mated to a .44 cylinder and barrel too. That configuration just felt better to me than any other.

[Flint]

A couple of my thoughts.

For the Civilian, Colt had options for the 1860 with a 7-1/2 inch barrel, different finishes and a Navy grip.

US Govenment purchases defined an Army as a 44 Caliber with an 8 inch barrel, and as nice as a 7-1/2 incher might have been, they were made 8 inches for use of the US military.  A Navy is 36 caliber with a 7-1/2 inch barrel.

I think, especially after fitting fully fluted cylinders to both Armies and Navies, the cylinder was dropped for economic reasons.  It would be more expensive to make, and it entails a lot more hand fitting to time it, as the bolt drop has to be spot on.  If the bolt drops earlt, the bolt nose has to climb the flutes side to get to the locking notch.  This not only scratches the cylinder, but also adds effort to the act of cocking the hammer.  The full round cylinder is easier to make and the bolt is certainly easier to time, as there is more forgiveness to when the bolt actually drops, and over time and use, the fluted cylinder would go out of time sooner and need more attention.

Note that later cylinders such as the SAA (and most cartridge revolvers) have flutes which do not extend back as far as the cylinder's locking notches, and it is for that reason.

[Alabama]

Here is another piece of evidence I read about , and I will find more , because I have seen this several times now about the 1860 fluted cylinder models and the cylinders being taken out of production because of weak cylinder walls on the early models .
Here's a link that tells a little about what I was speaking of and why fluted cylinders stopped being made . I knew it wasn't just timing issues . Since the hand pushes the cylinder into battery I doubt that was a big problem anyway . The cylinder stop isn't supposed to hit ever till the very last possible moment anyway , and technically never drag . I can see where the fluted cylinder may pose a problem with a REALLY worn gun , but I doubt the fluted cylinders were taken out of production for that reason alone . Naw 
www.geocities.com/oldwestguns
I have found no reference to any timing issues , yet , for thier elimination , but it does make perfect sence , and my search is not over either . Maybe Flint could post that ? 

Here's another one I just found too . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_army_Model_1860 . I see this is a common problem and is backed up with some facts .

Alabama

[Long Johns Wolf]

Interesting pistols and they look bullish with their 7.5" barrel and Navy grips.
FWIW: when the Belgians launched their Cavalry pistol 1961 project they went with the 7.5" barrel as well til 1963. With 4 srew frame, of course. Some 900 were made back then. But they decided to stick with the Army grip. Below pic of such a "F"-series Centaure pistol is from an US pard who reported her data into our survey.
When the Belgians did another small scale production run 1972 their Cavalry Model had the 8" barrel, however.
Long Johns Wolf

[Riot Earp]

'Bama, I couldn't get your second link to work. Is this the one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Army_Model_1860

[Alabama]

Yes, it is , sorry I couldn't do any better getting the links more direct , I am an idiot when it comes to computers , and other things , many other things ha ha   

I also should have started a new threade on the Fluted thing ( sorry Riot ) , but too late now unless Cuts Crooked wants to move it for me
I am still reading other things , links , and I haven't found anything pertaining to timing yet of these fluted cylinders and thier demise .
I have found many more links to the cylinders being weak though 
I hope Flint can set me straight on that timing thing . I bet its out there I just have yet to find it ?  Any help Flint

Sincerely , Alabama

[Roosterman]

All three of my Uberti armies have fluted cylinders, no timing problems as of yet. Of course things may have been different in the old days.

[Flint]

My comment regarding timing of the bolt for a fluted cylinder came strictly from personal experience, fitting a full fluted cylinder to a 61 Navy.  It was critical enough to make it time consuming, particularly where I wanted the original cylinder to work as well.

A bit of trivia gleaned from books on Colt, the fluted Army had right hand twist rifling, the 8 inch barrelled round cylinder (standard) model had left hand twist rifling.

The Colts had gain twist rifling, and as badly rusted out as the bore is on a 61 Navy I have (made in 1862) helped me identify it as a real Colt, as opposed to a badly cared for 2nd gen.  (The serial number also contributed to the ID, but that could have been faked).

I notice that Uberti Colts have right hand twist constant rate rifling, which may or may not have been an attempt by Val Forgett and Aldo Uberti to help prevent artificially aged forgeries.  The introduction of the repros by Navy Arms in the 60s was a real concern to collectors.

[Alabama]

Awsome peice of trivia there Flint on the Twist rate and direction . Didn't know that 
I learn so much here it aint funny , and I really mean that , it aint funny .
Everyday I look here I learn more neat stuff . This board is vital for the intelegence level going up for shooters , and God knows I need it 
Very interesting threade this has been , thanks Riot Earp , and thanks for clerifying that Flint 

Alabama

[Riot Earp]

I was planning to get a fluted cylinder for my next Uberti/Colt '61 Navy, since a few originals were made that way. I wanted something a bit different. But now I'm not sure.

[Alabama]

Earp ,
don't know if your stuck on Uberti or not really , but there is the option of getting the cylinder from the so-called 62 Sherrif Pietta in .36 and putting her on a 61 Navy Pietta to get the half flute look going for ya ?
They fit with no alteration too , I have them already and it works right . I just gave that 62 ( really a 61 with short barrel ) to a friend , but it did look good on the 61 Navy when I swapped cylinders to give her a look see .

Alabama

[Riot Earp]

Thanks, 'Bama. I'm more of a Uberti man, but that's a reasonable suggestion. VTI sells a full-fluted cylinder for the Uberti '61, but I don't want timing headaches.

[Alabama]

Understood , and Uberti's are fine guns indeed anyway .
Too bad they don't make a half flute , or do they ? I don't think they do ?
Anyway , good luck .
From what I have heard , here-say , they don't have any problems with the 1860 full fluted models , but buying the 61 and doing the Flint thing sounds horribly time consuming and hard to do too . But the full fluted 60 with the Navy grips is another winner idea for looks too , plus the firepower of the .44 ..............But , were getting spendy here putting all those custom parts together with another $75 for trigger guard and backstrap in steel delivered to your door , and then you got to make grips .
And then it isn't a 61 is it , and that is sure a handsome revolver , and oh my would it ever be with full flute job , wow 

Alabama

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Don't make the mistake:  I think Alabama means the '61 cylinder from the Pietta "sheriff" version.  1/2 flutes, .36 cal.  Also - it never existed in that exact form until Pietta created it.  But they look cool.

The '62 Colt had a 5 shot cylinder and was built on the 1849 Colt .31 cal. frames.  The '61 Colt Navy was roughly the size of the '51 Colts and were 6 shooters. 

Those little '62s are real cool and in 36 cal. would be a pretty fair Pocket Pistol - if your pocket was long enough.