12Ga Magtec Brass shotshells loading tools???

[Steel Horse Bailey]

4 Fingers, Howdy!

Nowhere do I remember reading what kind of powder you plan to use.  If you're planning on using Black Powder, the only thing you'll need is a way to prime them (at least better than the hammer method.)  If you use BP you won't NEED to resize them.  Probably.

Circle-Fly is the way to go.  If you're loading BP in the Magtechs, you'll need 11ga overpowder and 11 ga spacer wads.  You'll need 10 ga overshot wads.  If loading PLASTIC shells, the 12 ga and 11 ga wads will be OK, but the brass is thinner walled and therefore needs the larger wads.

I can give you no advice if you plan to use a plastic shotcup and smokeyless powders.  Around here, if I need that type of shell, the local retailers sell it cheaply enough that hand-loading isn't necessary.

BP, on the other hand, is all I shoot in my Magtechs.  I have an old Bonanza Coax single-stage press with their priming addition on the top.
http://i7.ebayimg.com/08/i/001/11/e1/9096_1.JPG
I modified mine (with a Dremel and finishing with files) to fit a 12 ga hull.  Works like a charm.

I use a depriming punch from an old Lee 8mm (8X57) Mauser hand loading set.  A steel clutch line-up tool I made in a machine shop for my old Subaru serves me to compress the powder.  I use waterglass (sodium silicate) to seal it all up.  No crimp.  Shoots great and has knocked down or swung (sp?  ) many shotgun targets.


Now here's some shotgun info as told to me by Nate "Kiowa" Jones, a renown gun mechanic.  I've found it to be true.  If you have a shotgun with loooong forcing cones, like many today, a plastic shotcup (generally) works best.  I'm talking patterns here.  If you have a shotgun with to older shot forcing cones, the plastic shotcup isn't needed so much - it'll work fine, but using card wads and no shotcup (like me) works as well.  And is cheaper for the handloader.  You see, the plastic shotcup will hold the pellets together better while it goes down the long forcing cone than a wad will.

When I had my Stoeger, that had long forcing cones, it did fine with either type of shell, but if I'd ever had the opportunity to properly pattern the shot, I'll bet that what Nate said would be shown.  Now I have an old Tula hammer double, (made in the 1970s or early 80s) with short cones, and it does just fine.

Have fun - whatever ya choose!

[Noz]

Now here's some shotgun info as told to me by Nate "Kiowa" Jones, a renown gun mechanic.  I've found it to be true.  If you have a shotgun with loooong forcing cones, like many today, a plastic shotcup (generally) works best.  I'm talking patterns here.  If you have a shotgun with to older shot forcing cones, the plastic shotcup isn't needed so much - it'll work fine, but using card wads and no shotcup (like me) works as well.  And is cheaper for the handloader.  You see, the plastic shotcup will hold the pellets together better while it goes down the long forcing cone than a wad will.

As I understand it, the fiber wads do not expand to fill the long forcing cone and the gases from the burning powder run around them and disrupt the shot charge.  I cut the shot cup off of some old AA wads and simply dropped it on top of the fiber wad. Helped a lot.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

As I understand it, the fiber wads do not expand to fill the long forcing cone and the gases from the burning powder run around them and disrupt the shot charge.  I cut the shot cup off of some old AA wads and simply dropped it on top of the fiber wad. Helped a lot.

Yeppir!

[Wills Point Pete]

 My 12 gauge Mag Tech shells use an 11 guage one eighth inch nito wad over the powder. Then an 11 gauge fiber cushion wad Or a 12 gauge Claybuster copy of the Winchester Red wad. Now the plastic wad won't work without that one eighth wad but over that wad it works fine. I cannot see inside the shell when it goes off but I suspect that the plastic wad alone won't keep the powder gasses behind it. The one eighth wad does that.

I spent a lot of time shooting patterns with my brass shells. My Chicom double is bored improved cylinder and modified. By dorking around with powder charges and wads I can make it shoot patterns ranging from cylinder to nearly full. Want tighter patterns? Use a shot dipper bigger than the powder dipper and a plastic shotcup wad. Want looser patterns? Use the same dipper for shot and powder. Want them a little more open? Change to a fiber wad and no shotcup. Even more open? Increase the size of the powder scoop or decrease the size of the shot scoop.

Those Mag Techs are really cool but you really need to spend time patterning the loads. I keep reading that a doughnut shaped pattern means that we have too much powder. Well, we can just as easily say, no, we have too little shot. Choose the amount of shot you like and then work on the charge. A square load is a good place to start but it's not the end. My little adjustable dipper goes from a two drams and one quarter to three and seven eighths. I started with that famous square load and then I increased the powder charge until I got that donut shaped pattern, then I dropped back a tad. That was my max charge with that amount of that size shot. Then I went down on the powder charge some and watched the patterns tighten to where it was easy to miss the close range targets but when I hit them they went DOWN!

Four Fingers, if you send me your mailing address I'll send you some 11 gauge overpowder wads and some ten gauge overshot wads. Like 25 of each, just to get you a look at what you are trying to do. I think that will mail for 41 cents.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

The FAMOUS SQUARE LOAD means a bit more than is commonly understood.

1.  The shot column diameter and height are the same.  This really makes it SQUARE.

for 12 gauge, this is about 1 1/16 oz.  In other words, generally, a common light load is a square load.

2.  No more powder than shot by volume. 

As discussed above, good loads can be found from equal volumes to as much as 30% less powder.

3.  Lastly, and usually called the GUNMAKERS RULE, the shot load should not exceed 1/96th of gunweight.

Following this rule will result in a balance of effectiveness, portability, and shootability.  Heavier loads can be shot in solid guns, but if the shot/gun weight ratio is kept within the rule you can do it all day, anywhere.  Examples of this 1/96 ratio are;

1 ounce of shot for a 6 pound gun.
1 1/4 ounce of shot for a 7 1/2 pound gun.

[Rusty Spurless]

The FAMOUS SQUARE LOAD means a bit more than is commonly understood.

1.  The shot column diameter and height are the same.  This really makes it SQUARE.

for 12 gauge, this is about 1 1/16 oz.  In other words, generally, a common light load is a square load.

2.  No more powder than shot by volume. 

As discussed above, good loads can be found from equal volumes to as much as 30% less powder.

3.  Lastly, and usually called the GUNMAKERS RULE, the shot load should not exceed 1/96th of gunweight.[/b


Following this rule will result in a balance of effectiveness, portability, and shootability.  Heavier loads can be shot in solid guns, but if the shot/gun weight ratio is kept within the rule you can do it all day, anywhere.  Examples of this 1/96 ratio are;

1 ounce of shot for a 6 pound gun.
1 1/4 ounce of shot for a 7 1/2 pound gun

+1 Sage advice!

[Bryan Austin]

Things that make ya go ......hmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

Learn somthin new every day!

[Bryan Austin]

The FAMOUS SQUARE LOAD means a bit more than is commonly understood.

1.  The shot column diameter and height are the same.  This really makes it SQUARE.

for 12 gauge, this is about 1 1/16 oz.  In other words, generally, a common light load is a square load.

2.  No more powder than shot by volume. 

As discussed above, good loads can be found from equal volumes to as much as 30% less powder.

3.  Lastly, and usually called the GUNMAKERS RULE, the shot load should not exceed 1/96th of gunweight.

Following this rule will result in a balance of effectiveness, portability, and shootability.  Heavier loads can be shot in solid guns, but if the shot/gun weight ratio is kept within the rule you can do it all day, anywhere.  Examples of this 1/96 ratio are;

1 ounce of shot for a 6 pound gun.
1 1/4 ounce of shot for a 7 1/2 pound gun.

What if the barrel was cut down? Does this effect recoil and wear on the parts with the 1/96th rule?

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

"Rule"is a more imprecise word than "law".  In this context, it indicates a compromise of different factors, some of which are mentioned in my post.

If your piece was capable of handling warthog loads, the strength of the guns action will not be affected by shortening barrels and you could continue using those loads.  The trade-off, and there is always a trade-off, is in increased recoil as the guns weight goes down.  Short barrels also affect perceived recoil as the centre of gravity moves to the rear allowing the barrels to rise more in recoil.  Also muzzle blast increases which may bother some.

The gunmakers rule of 96 still has some play.  If you wish to keep recoil within reason, reduce the shot load within the parameters of the rule.

[Bryan Austin]

"Rule"is a more imprecise word than "law".  In this context, it indicates a compromise of different factors, some of which are mentioned in my post.

If your piece was capable of handling warthog loads, the strength of the guns action will not be affected by shortening barrels and you could continue using those loads.  The trade-off, and there is always a trade-off, is in increased recoil as the guns weight goes down.  Short barrels also affect perceived recoil as the centre of gravity moves to the rear allowing the barrels to rise more in recoil.  Also muzzle blast increases which may bother some.

The gunmakers rule of 96 still has some play.  If you wish to keep recoil within reason, reduce the shot load within the parameters of the rule.

Good lord NO! I shoot an original Winchester 1887 lever action shotgun with a cut down barrel. I shoot lowest of the loads for CAS but wanted to load some 00 Buck for a challenging deer hunt! Just dont wanna do anything stupid!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Cutting the barrels doesn't make the action any weaker, nor any stronger.

Smoke 'em, if you got 'em!

Pattern well before embarkin' on your Shotgun Boogie!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Heh! Fourfingersofdeath;  Did you ever get those magtech shells working

Here is the shotgunners theme song  SHOTGUN BOOGIE

[Rafe Covington]

Not trying to hi-jack the thread, just a question. I have a 1887 lever shotgun, can you use brass cases in that.

Thanks
Rafe

[Pony Racer]

RC - I have used brass shells in mine.  Sometimes the load two is a little difficult unless you get the case mouths roll crimped just so...

I know some folks who have the slight roll crimp down to a science and shoot the shells out of 1887s and 1897s...

It is quite the hoot to hear them big brass shells being shucked out of a 1897 and even better when they are shooting black powder loads!

PR

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I have an old (turn of the century type) crimping tool.  You know, the type that clamps to your work table and has a handle that while squeezing with one hand you crank with the other.

I was able to put a nice roll crimp on 2 of my Magtech 12 ga. hulls.  I did it as an experiment.  I don't own the tool and it appeared to me that the inside brass parts that do the crimping weren't going to survive many crimps to a brass hull, since they were actually designed to crimp paper.  That was OK, since the crimp did NOT "fire out" when I shot them.  (BP loads ONLY)  Perhaps a smokeyless load would have straightened out the crimp.  Whatever the reason, the crimp stayed on the hull and putting in the new wads was a "challenge" to say the least.  Since then I've seen photos of factory brass loads and I put MUCH more crimp on the shells than the factory did.

It really doesn't matter much since I shoot from a hammer-double, so the crimp doesn't do much to help, anyway.  Not like what would help in a lever-gun or pumper.

How do the rest of you put a slight crimp on your hulls?  The 2 I have are shortened for my use, because the mouth of the shell cracked and I shortened them with a tubing cutter and now only use them for 12 ga. BP blanks I use for the GLFMC Train Robberies our club does from May-September on the CKS Railway.

(If you care to, look about half-way down the site-index page:)     http://cksrailroad.homestead.com/


Later ...

[rickk]

I'm using the RCBS 12 G cowboy die made specifically for the brass hulls. It needs a Rockchucker or a Lee Cast Classic to hold it's oversized threads, but it can not only deprime and reprime, but also full length resize the brass hulls if needed. For what it's worth, a MEC supersizer can not size the brass hulls, at least I was not able to get it to work. I would be hesitant to try to resize an all brass hull on a MEC shotgun press either.

Simple wooden dowels still come in handy for putting wads in place though.

BPI carries the needed 11 and 10 G wads.

And I got a quart of waterglass off of ebay for about $20 bucks.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Rick, will it put a crimp (small) on the end of the finished shell?

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I have the full RCBS set myself, but;

1.  It is too large to size my European shotguns as they are chambered fairly tightly.
2.  It WILL crimp Magtechs, but I've not bothered.

The shellholder comes in handy, though!

[Pappy Myles]

I have the 12 ga RCBS die also.  The only thing I really use it for is to put a slight crimp on the end of my mag tech brass.
I've built a little reload kit out of dowels and and a block of wood.  The process is very similat to the old Lee kits.  I took a block of wood, and bored a 7"8" hole about 1/2 way thru.  (hint, use hard wood, oak, etc) then with some JB weld I glued a washer in it.  That sets the base to punch the old primer out out.  For a punch, in my box of salvaged dies and other junk that you just can't throw away, I took the center out of an old sizeing die and with a mallet, the block of wood with the washer in it, I deprime.    The shell holder from the 12 ga RCBS die works fine.  I took a RCBE hand priming tool and with a dremel tool and a couple of small files, took enough material off the top so the shell holder would fit.  One thing about the ram, is its just short enough to leave a high primer. You can take a small bolt about the same diameter and a hacksaw and a file and make one that will fit.  Just be sure the finished end is flat and smooth.  Goes without saying.  I have a Lee adjustable shot cup that I set to 1 1/8 oz and make a square load.  My shotgun is a TNN double hammer.  Got no idea what the choke on it is if it has one.  I gace up on the felt wads, and I was either (1) getting the wad to blow thru the pattern, making it look like a donut. or (2) theres not much of a chamber in my gun, so I figured I was getting a heck of a lot of blow by as the wad exited the mag tech case,  the sound was just not right, more of a thuddy woosh instead of a BANG.  Anyway, it couldnt knock down a leaf with it.   I tried several different loads, wads (11 ga   10 ga, etc.) nothing worked.  I finally went to Winchester AA wads with a little wonder lube (or SPG) rubbed in the cussion part of the wad.  I still get a little bit of snake skin in the barrel. but now I get the bang, and the knock downs do fall.  I use the circly fly overshot wad, with a touch of elmers wood glue, slightle diluted with water. That with the slight crimp on the end of the shell.

[rickk]

Like Sir Charles and Pappy have said, yes, it will put a taper crimp on the hulls.

In fact, I routinely run plastic stuff that has been loaded on my MEC 600 Jr thru the RCBS taper crimp to turn the slightly 8 pointed end to a perfectly round end that has a bit of a taper on it to make them load easier.

I would not go overboard with taper crimping a brass hull. It places undo wear and tear on the case mouth.

If you really want something that will load fast, I think the plastic ones can be made to load faster.

I don't care about overworking the case mouth on plastic because when I use BP, I get them multiple fired and beat up really cheap or free, I load them once and toss them after a single use.

Most of my BP loads go into hulls that are so beat that the crimp end is staring to break apart. I cut the end off with a BPI hull trimmer, roll crimp them, run them thru the RCBS taper crimp die to make them somewhat pointy at the end, and am good to go.

The brass hulls I save for use in my old Crescent Damascus-barreled SxS. They are really light BP loads, and I use the brass hulls in the old mule-eared gun for the style factor.

Rick