Colt Cap and Ball fix

[Fiddler Green]

For all you SASS members out there:

Have you looked at the article on page 58 of the September issue of the Cowboy Chronicle? I'm thinking about trying it on my Pietta 1860 Army model to see how well it works.  I'm using my Colts in the SASS and I really need them to work.

What do you think?
Is it worth trying?
Should I do it on my 1851 first, rather then my 1860? Why?


For the non-SASS members: Sorry, I don't want to try to explain the whole article, or post it. So you should have joined when you had the chance! If it works, I'll explain what I did and how I did it.

Bruce

[Fox Creek Kid]

For the non-SASS members: Sorry, I don't want to try to explain the whole article, or post it. So you should have joined when you had the chance!

[Pettifogger]

Shouldn't make any difference whether you do your 51 or 60.  They have the same hammer and the frame is basically the same on both.  I tried it, but I used a miling machine and made the hammer cut and drilled the hole with a lot more precision than what was done in the article.  Mixed results so far.  I haven't really had a cap "jam" but I am getting a lot of what I call cap "balks".  A jam stops the action and either takes a lot of time to clear or can't be cleared on the line.  A cap balk is where it hangs up so you either have to pull extra hard on the hammer or reach up with the off hand to help turn the cylinder, but you can keep shooting.  For reasons I cannot explain, after 100 rounds the pin was bent back and there were cap fragments in the hammer nose behind the pin.  (which should have bent the pin forward when they got thick enough, but as noted my pin was bent back.)  When I got home I switched to piano wire for the pin instead of drill rod and fired another 60 or so rounds the next day.  Seems to be holding up a little better.  If I'm not putting cap guards in a gun I usually weld up that little slot.  I find that the caps stick in it and tend to pull off the nipple and fall into the hammer channel.  I shot a second gun with the slot welded at a match this weekend and it worked just as well as the one with the pin in it.  Gonna experiment some more.  Seems like a good idea, but I'm not sure it will hold up in the long run and can visualize where a cap fragment could wrap itself around the pin.  Right now, good caps and nipples and welding the hammer slot in the hammer nose closed seems to work pretty darn well.  A couple of things to watch for.  First, you have to set the pin back about .085" to clear the safety pins or move it forward a little and grind the pins down a little.  Second, don't widen the hammer slot to much.  If you look at the imprint the nipple makes on the hammer nose you'll see there isn't a whole lot of material hitting the cap.  If you make the slot to big, you might have ignition problems.

[Fiddler Green]

Shouldn't make any difference whether you do your 51 or 60.  They have the same hammer and the frame is basically the same on both.  I tried it, but I used a miling machine .....................................

Interesting, now you've got me re-thinking it.

I was going to use a machinist friend to do the work. And, I was concerned about the size of the opening in the hammer face, as well. I was thinking of using a roll pin instead of the drill bit but now you've got me second guessing that idea.

I've had both the problem of the cap comming off with the hammer and falling into the gap between the frame and the hammer as well as your aformentioned "Cap balks". And, like you said, it can take a long time to clear or cost you a penalty.

If you don't mind, let me know what you come up with. I've got my next match on the 20th and then a big one on the 26th-28th.

Bruce

[Fiddler Green]

Sorry, Fox, but, if you ead the article in question, you know how this thread would go with a bunch of responses from people who didn't.

Bruce

[Hedley Lamarr]

I sent an e-mail to Utah, the writer of the aforesaid article, and hopefully he will send me the files so I can post it over at The Open Range with Larsen's articles.
That way even the non-SASS members can see it.

[Oddman]

Fiddler Green,
I also shoot Pietta 60's, have you changed out the nipples on your guns ? I changed to treso nipples and have very few problems, I alaso lowered the powder charge (with less blow back through the nipple) the expended caps appear to stay on. I think the hole in the treso nipple is smaller then stock nipples, which aids in the reduction of blow back. Thats my 2 cents.
If the fix in the C.C. works, I may have to try it.  Best of luck shooting

Oddman

[Noz]

Fiddler Green,
I also shoot Pietta 60's, have you changed out the nipples on your guns ? I changed to treso nipples and have very few problems, I alaso lowered the powder charge (with less blow back through the nipple) the expended caps appear to stay on. I think the hole in the treso nipple is smaller then stock nipples, which aids in the reduction of blow back. Thats my 2 cents.
If the fix in the C.C. works, I may have to try it.  Best of luck shooting

Oddman

+1

[Fiddler Green]

Fiddler Green,
I also shoot Pietta 60's, have you changed out the nipples on your guns ? I changed to treso nipples and have very few problems, I alaso lowered the powder charge (with less blow back through the nipple) the expended caps appear to stay on. I think the hole in the treso nipple is smaller then stock nipples, which aids in the reduction of blow back. Thats my 2 cents.
If the fix in the C.C. works, I may have to try it.  Best of luck shooting

Oddman

I tried the Treso nipples and didn't really see any diffrence.

I normally shoot 15 grains of APP in the .36 and 20 grains of APP in the .44. Those are pretty light. I've also tried as low as 15 grains of Pyrodex P in the .44.  And "yes" the lighter loads, while not eliminating the problem, do make it better. Still, it only takes one missfire at an event and your screwed. With my Taurus Gauchos "in the shop" I don't have a fall back option so I really need the Colts to work.

Bruce

[Fiddler Green]

Sorry, Fox, but, if you read the article in question, you know how this thread would go with a bunch of responses from people who didn't.

Bruce

[Fiddler Green]

I sent an e-mail to Utah, the writer of the aforesaid article, and hopefully he will send me the files so I can post it over at The Open Range with Larsen's articles.
That way even the non-SASS members can see it.

That's fine. But, I'm more interested in what the competative shooters have to say anyway.

Bruce

[Fingers McGee]

Changing from stock nipples to Tresos eliminated any cap problems I had.  Rarely now does an expended cap fall off and cause a problem.  The standard load for my Navies is 20 gr fffg, wad, and .380 roundball.  Armies get 24 gr fffg, wad and .454 roundball.  Rounding or knocking off the edges of the slot in the hammner face keeps the hammer from grabbing the expended cap and pulling it off the nipple and; in my experience anyhow, seerves the same purpose at the installation of the pin.

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee

[Fiddler Green]

Changing from stock nipples to Tresos eliminated any cap problems I had.  Rarely now does an expended cap fall off and cause a problem. 

So, your saying that the Tresos nipples "eliminated all problems"...except for the ones you still have "Rarely now does an expended cap fall off"  Pretty much what I found out, too.

The standard load for my Navies is 20 gr fffg, wad, and .380 roundball.  Armies get 24 gr fffg, wad and .454 roundball. 
Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee

Of what? Telling someone that you're using a measured amount of an unknown powder does nothing for them. You'll notice that I used two different examples, for each caliber, with two different manufacturer's powder and the amounts are different.

Telling someone that you're using a measured amount of a given powder at least gives them a starting point.  Yes, lots are different as are caps, but, the more information the better.

BTW: I use a Midway, Digital Scale when working up a load and then transfer it to a pre-set powder measures for events.

Bruce

[hellgate]

The article described the technique of installing a small peg or pin in the frame in the hammer cutout to block the blowback of the spent cap. You need to enlarge the safety cutout in the face of the hammer to make room for the pin so it isn't hit by the hammer.

I've had caps get into the safety cutout notch and found if I gently stoned the sharp edges to remove burrs the caps quit getting grabbed. Filling in the safety notch is something I have considered many times. Epoxy or JB weld doesn't work. BTDT

[Alabama]

That's fine. But, I'm more interested in what the competative shooters have to say anyway.

Bruce

I guessum us idiots that don't shootum real-um competitive SASS and can barely read and write-um have no idea-um what-um you be talking about-um anyway-um  , so how could we be-um any possible help to you-um or be interested in-um the article aformentioned-um anyway um ? Esepcially ifin were not official-um SASS member like-um you-um is ? I guess-um if you-um not SASS-um folk you gots to be stupid , too stupid to understand-um what you be talkin about thats for sure-um .
I sure-um wish I would have signed up to an orginization that has you in it so I could be Godlike too-um and alienate 90% of the people on this site-um . Mustum be nice-um to play Godlike and get away with it-um ?
I do know-um my caps get stuck in thar once inawhile-um , but I sure cant tell yas how I resolved it mostly , because I am too stupid and don't shoot real SASS competitively-um . Gosh golly I am not sure I even typed " cap " write   Better check with God and you first to see if I did ? Oh yeh that's right-um you don't talk to regular folk , your-um better than us-um .
Sure ism glad our revolvers are-um so different than yours though-um oh yu official member of SASS-Y , I wouldn't want the arrogant-um to rubb off-um onto mine , thats for sure-um . God knows , or you tha tis , that our-um caps must fall off in some diferent way-um ? Good grief 
I'lle be sure to never join that-um I know for sure-um now . Reminds me allot like IPSC people . Way too serious , failure to have fun-um , eeegghhhaaaadsss man-um .

Alabama

[Gun Butcher]

   Fiddler, most of us brainless people would figure that if a man writes just ffg or fffg that the man is talking about plain ol' black powder, pard.
  And believe or not the HOLY BLACK is not rocket science. If you want to be competative try practicing and not finding the right formulas for everything.
  And last but not least, you should admit that you were just a bit pompous in a texas size way. Take a deep breath pard and life might be a little easier.         Gun Butcher

[Pettifogger]

+1.  BP and none of the subs are rocket science.  They are all measured by VOLUMETRIC equivalents to real BP.  Actual weight of the charge is irrelevant.  If your powder measure is set for 20 grains of real BP you don't adjust the measure for the subs, you use the same VOLUME of powder.  If someone is useing a digital scale to measure a BP or sub charge, they are working to hard.  I haven't weighed a BP charge in over 40 years.

[Fingers McGee]

I'm sorry I wasn't clearer for you Fiddler Green.  I mistakenly believed you shot cap and ball revolvers at 3 or 4 local monthly and an annual/state or regional match per month like I did and would know what I was taking about.  If you would present you bonafides at the beginning of a thread, we would all know at what level we should be presenting our information.

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee

[Hedley Lamarr]

I rec'd the ok to post the article.
As soon as I get it I will notify folks where to view it.

[Fingers McGee]

I rec'd the ok to post the article.
As soon as I get it I will notify folks where to view it.

For those that don't get the Chronicle - Thanks Hedley

Fingers (Show Me MO Smoke) McGee