44-40 and Pyro P Compression EDITED 05 Sept 08

[Bryan Austin]

 EDITED 5 SEPT 08

Today I measured a few cases with different grains of Pyrodex P. This is what I found.

44 Mav 200 grain Big Lube BP bullets at .429
Winchester Case
Winchester Large Pistol Primers

Charges are untapped when measured but tapped to allow settling once inside the case.

35 grains - 1/8 compression
36.5 grains - 3/16 compression
40 grains - 1/4 compression

Pyrodex website says: ""WARNING: Never allow an air space in any cartridge loaded with Pyrodex. The loading density must be 100% by light compression. 100% loading density may be accomplished in two ways:
The case is filled with powder to a level that will provide light compression of the powder (1/16" to 1/8") when the bullet is seated. Bottle necked cases must be loaded in this manner."



I started to load up some when I realized I wanted to understand more about compression. I was reading somewhere and saw that too much compression crushes the grains and causes faster burn rate and higher pressures? Is this correct?

My new questions is how much compression is too much with Pyrodex P, Pyrodex Select, and Goex!


I also noticed that the powder seems to allow the bullet to align better for the 44-40 and keeps that aggravating angle bulge out!

What on earth have I got myself into? 

BTW, Thanks to Driftwood Johnson for his: "A Few Photos Illustrating How to Determine Powder Compression"

[Fox Creek Kid]

Do NOT compress Pyrodex!! That's directly from Hogdon.

[Bryan Austin]

This is what I got off of the Pyrodex website.

"WARNING: Never allow an air space in any cartridge loaded with Pyrodex. The loading density must be 100% by light compression. 100% loading density may be accomplished in two ways:
The case is filled with powder to a level that will provide light compression of the powder (1/16" to 1/8") when the bullet is seated. Bottle necked cases must be loaded in this manner."

[Pettifogger]

The actual weight is IRRELEVANT.  The max that will fit in a Starlline case is however much powder will fit and still give you light compression.  You don't need (or particularly want) to tap the powder to settle it.  Just set your measure so it consistently throws a volume that will allow for light compression.  You don't need to squash the powder into a pellet in order for it to work properly.

[Noz]

I will assume the role of devil's advocate.

If I dump sufficient powder(black or sub) into a case to a depth that will allow the base of the bullet to be I/8" below the top of the level of the powder upon being seated.  Then shake it as in normal carrying and the powder settles another 1/8-1/4".  How can that possibly be called a compressed load.
In all reality, there is probably air space between the bullet base and the powder.

[Pettifogger]

If you compress Pyrodex 1/8" there ain't no way in heck its gonna settle another 1/4". 

[Bryan Austin]

Today I measured a few cases with different grains of Pyrodex P. This is what I found.

44 Mav 200 grain Big Lube BP bullets at .429
Winchester Case
Winchester Large Pistol Primers

Charges are untapped when measured but tapped to allow settling once inside the case.

35 grains - 1/8 compression
36.5 grains - 3/16 compression
40 grains - 1/4 compression


My new questions is how much compression is too much with Pyrodex P, Pyrodex Select, and Goex!

[Pettifogger]

You've already printed the instructions for loading from Hodgdon.  They say LIGHT compression, 1/16" to 1/8".  If you don't believe them use as much compression as you feel appropriate.  After all, they only make the stuff what do they know?  Maybe we can make some suggestions if we know what your objective is.  What are you trying to achieve?

[Bryan Austin]

You've already printed the instructions for loading from Hodgdon.  They say LIGHT compression, 1/16" to 1/8".  If you don't believe them use as much compression as you feel appropriate.  After all, they only make the stuff what do they know?

Pettifogger I post here to learn. Pyrodex says Light and I say WHY? My question is to learn, not to disobey their suggestions. Understand?

[Pettifogger]

From the bottom of the loading section for 777 and Pyrodex.

"*WARNING. Failure to follow the recommendations for use of Triple Seven and Pyrodex
could result in injury and/or death to the shooter or bystanders and damage to property."

That's why. 

If you need more you should probably call or email Hodgdon.  No one on this wire has access to their lab data.  A SASS member named Birdshot (if I remember correctly) works for Hodgdon and tries to answer these kind of questions.

[Bryan Austin]

From the bottom of the loading section for 777 and Pyrodex.

"*WARNING. Failure to follow the recommendations for use of Triple Seven and Pyrodex
could result in injury and/or death to the shooter or bystanders and damage to property."

That's why. 

If you need more you should probably call or email Hodgdon.  No one on this wire has access to their lab data.  A SASS member named Birdshot (if I remember correctly) works for Hodgdon and tries to answer these kind of questions.

That is the obvious why, I want the scientific why....lol High pressures, low pressures, case bulging, pistols exploding, etc. Figured someone here might know and like to share. I'd call them but they probably dont have time for little ole me.....

Just finished reading a website by Abilene, SASS member but didnt book mark it...duh!

[Pettifogger]

You can also go here http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php     Then scroll down to the Dark Side and put in a post for "Dutch Bill" he is a chemist and has done a lot of work with various companies on BP and the subs.

I've shot BP since 1961 and have used all the subs extensively.  I could give you my opinion, but that's all it would be.  When dealing with gunpowders, pressure, and in many cases old guns made of inferior steel, opinions can get you hurt.  So, while I have tested all kinds of things in modern high strength guns, I have never seen a need to compress Pyrodex more than 1/8" and that's all I'll say about it.

[Bryan Austin]

Thanks for the link. A pard sent me that last night but havnet had a chance to surf it yet.  Just came inside from getting my horses eye lid stitched up. Went outside to load up some 35 gran 44-40s when my daughter informed me the horses eye lid was hanging off. Yeap, about an inch and a half by a half inch hanging there. Called the vet and she stiched it back on. No need to reload for SASS in the morning, now I have to stay home all day to check on the horse every few hours. I can reload some then 

[Pettifogger]

Youch.  How did its eye lid get ripped off?  Was the eye damaged?

[Bryan Austin]

Her eye is ok but it took a chunk out of the upper right eye lid. I got a pick but only after it was stitched back up. She had some gnats on her eye yesterday afternoon which looked like something irritated it. She probably scratched it on a fence post or something similar and it hung up. Vet said it happens more than ya think!. She will be ok and the lid should heal up but my pockets just got emptied......so much for that pocket pistol I wanted 

[Bryan Austin]

Didnt mean to get OT in my own topic but here is that pic for you horse lovers. I will just post a link.

http://a46.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/94/l_7d21221aa766e66fd2fc0a5f97911a9d.jpg