Pyrodex FFFG vs. American Pioneer FFFG

[Fiddler Green]

So, I live in California where it is next to impossible to get real black powder so I shoot substitutes. And, before you start, yea, I know, I can order 25 Lbs at a time (and I am considering doing just that), through the mail or drive a mere 14 hours to a state where I buy it.

In the mean time, I shoot Pyrodex. I just tried American Pioneer and am finding the two, both if FFFG, are radically different. The grain of the American Pioneer is huge compared to the Pyrodex and it seems to have much less power. Traditionally, at the range, I load 20 grains of Pyrodex into my Pietta, .44 Cal, Colt 1860 Army replica. With this load, it makes a typical big boom, medium recoil and lots of smoke. With the American Pioneer, there is lots of smoke, no recoil and I hardly hear the gun firing at all. Hummm.............. I haven't taken out my chronograph yet, but, I suspect that there is a significant difference in MV too.

I use both a digital scale and the volume method of measuring my charges.

If you have fired both powders have you found the same thing?

(And, I really don't care if you have friend that knows a guy that has a boyfriend that has.  I'm looking for first source, here)

In my .36 Cal my normal, Pyrodex, 15 grain load seems to be much more powerful then the equivalent American Pioneer load with the cylinder filled to the brim and compressed. Again, same amount of smoke, less noise and (I suspect) less power.

Bruce

[Pettifogger]

APP is the weakest of the BP substitutes and as you noted is far larger in grain size.  It makes it harder to meter through powder measures and leaves dust all over your press.  This dust draws water like you won't believe.  I live in the desert and even here you have to clean that dust off your equipment or it will rust pronto.  I keep a can of air from a computer supply store on-hand to blow off the dust every few hundred rounds.  When I'm done loading, I use a big compressor to really blow everything out.  That's for cartridges. Now, I'm talking volume equivalents in C&Bs.  20 grains of APP is not quite enough in an 1860 Army.  I shoot APP in competition since I don't need any lube or wads and it really speeds up the loading time.  In the .44 you need at least 25 grains as the stock rammer won't quite get the ball fully seated on a 20 grain charge in a Colt clone.  Once you get the ball seated on the APP, you will see a noticeable different in power.  APP needs a little compression in a C&B.  It won't be quite as powderful as Pyrodex on a volume for volume basis.  But, once you get enough so your rammer gets the ball down on the powder, you will notice a big difference.  I just extended the rammers on my .44s by about an 1/8" to get a little better compression on the 25 grain charge.  Because APP is so large, it doesn't measure consistently and every once in a while I would still get a very wimpy shot out of my C&Bs with 25 grains.  At EOT I got one of those wimpy shots on a knockdown and it didn't take it down.  A compressed 25 grain load takes the knockdowns down with no problem.  I didn't want to raise the charge, so I lengthened the rammer to take care of the problem.

[Fiddler Green]

I don't meter APP through a press; I pour it into the cylinders of the pistol(s) so that's not much of an issue with me.

I found that the ball compresses 20 grains (by weight) of APP in my .44, Pietta 1860 as measured on my digital scale. I can't use the preset measurer as the grain size is so different from the Pyrodex that it's just too far off. I've tried, with both the 1851 and the 1860, to just fill the cylinder almost to the top and then compress it with the ball and it worked fine; in both cases. Still, the APP is way less powerful then the Pyrodex and the grains are much larger. I'm wondering why so different?

Why do you say you don't need lube or wads with APP?

Bruce

[Dalton Masterson]

APP makes its own lube. It is a great powder for simple cartridge loading. You can use the normal crayon wax bullet, and the APP will work just fine, making just enough of its own lube to work.

I have noticed it is quite a bit lighter shooting than any of the other powders I have used. I dont like it at all in a percussion gun, but in cartridges its not bad. It makes nice clouds of smoke and cleans up much better than Rustodex.

Make sure you dont throw the little packet of moisture absorber out of the can. Its very important with APP.

Of course, I have seen the error of my ways, and am using real black now. About 14-15 cans of it so far this year, according to the powder safe count. I definately wont be going back to subs unless I use them in my shotty, which isnt likely.

DM

[Dick Dastardly]

Where that I would, I'd help ya out with Genuine Powder.  I'm made to ask, why would something so old and natural be made so unavailable???  Come the future, I'm goin' to load up a hundred or so pounds of Noble Powder and fetch it with me goin' west.  Come Kalaphornia, I'll be only to happy to parcel it out at my actual cost and to heck with the gas.

I think it's purely unnatural to ration Holy Black.  It's the propellant of our enjoyment and the least desirable of terrorist toys.  The fact wrankles me that there are gentlemen sportsmen and ladies that are restricted from the power of their persuasion and made to use (UGHH) substitution/replica of nothing powder in order to be politically correct.  We've come to mud.

DD-DLoS

[Fiddler Green]

Where that I would, I'd help ya out with Genuine Powder.  I'm made to ask, why would something so old and natural be made so unavailable??? 
DD-DLoS

Well, when you have politicians who don't know anything about guns writing anti-gun laws; that's what you get! I wonder if they have ever tried to bad fertilizer and diesel fuel? Probably not.

I still think it's silly that you can't buy a single shot .22 without filling out a ton of forms, having a valid driver's license and waiting 10 day but you can buy a replica of the type of gun that was used to kill President Lincoln without so much as giving a first name.

Bruce

[Fiddler Green]

APP makes its own lube. It is a great powder for simple cartridge loading. You can use the normal crayon wax bullet, and the APP will work just fine, making just enough of its own lube to work.

Make sure you dont throw the little packet of moisture absorber out of the can. Its very important with APP.

DM

Like I said: I don't load BP (or subs) into cartriges so that's not much of an issue. I may load some 45/70 and/or 45 LC at some point. But, for now, all my reloading is done for my modern guns or by pouring powder directly into my BP guns.

My APP came in plastic bottles, not cans and they didn't have any packets in them. I do, however, keep all my powder and primers in an old refrigerator (yes, it's off!) with a large can of descant in it. Same with my gun safe. I live 8/10th of a mile frm Monterey Bay and you get allot of damp, salt air here.

Bruce

[Dalton Masterson]

You might dig around in the can some, there should be a packet of dessicant in there. All of mine have had one, and its a bummer to get it into the powder flask and not realize it. If its not there, you could end up with a big lump of APP.

All the APP I have ever seen comes in plastic bottles, I just refer to it as a can, as thats what my others are in.
DM

[Fiddler Green]

You might dig around in the can some, there should be a packet of dessicant in there. DM

Nope. Not there. I looed in both bottles. I was the one that opened them so they didn't have the packets from the get go. In any event, I keep them in a good place so I'm not really that worried.

Bruce

[Colt Fanning]

Hi,
I shoot App in a pieata C&B. I notice that App reccomends no card and no lube on the front of the ball.  Is this safe?
How much do these two steps do to prevent ring fires?  I use a .380 ball which is a tight fit in the .36 1851 Colt.
Regards
Colt

[Fiddler Green]

Hi,
I shoot App in a pieata C&B. I notice that App reccomends no card and no lube on the front of the ball.  Is this safe?
How much do these two steps do to prevent ring fires?  I use a .380 ball which is a tight fit in the .36 1851 Colt.
Regards
Colt

I use "Bore butter" over the ball. Either the Regular or the Tompson. I, also, use .375 balls.

Bruce