Where have all the C&B guns gone?

[Fiddler Green]

So, I just got the new Cabela's Fall Master catalog, Edition II and the first thing I did (the first thing I always do!) is looked up the cap and ball pistols. Yea, right!

I completely missed them on the first pass through, then, going slower, I found BOTH of them on the second. To be fair, they weren't where you would expect to find them. They were not even with the classic BP rifles; no they were at the bottom of the 4th page (381) of "Modern" black powder rifles. They had a Stainless 1858 with a 5 1/2" barrel and the old standard 1852 "Confederate" Navy Model.  Not that these are bad guns.....but, where are the rest of them?!?

Are we losing ground here? I noticed that Midway doesn't seem to have much, in the way of C&B pistols, "in stock" anymore either. Same was true of my last visits to Cabela's in Reno. I bought the only 1861 Army they had in the store and their display case was pretty thin: no Walker, no 1849 (or, any pocket pistol, for that matter), only the display 1858. They didn't even have either of the brass framed 1851's. The Reno Sportsmen's Warehouse had a bunch of 1858's but only 1, 1860 and were out of 1851's. I asked the people at Sportsmen's if they were getting anymore and they said they didn't know.

So, what gives? Are C&B pistols falling out of favor with the buying public? It seems to me like they are becoming more popular. Are they just getting hard to get? The Euro is starting to fall and that's only going to put pricing back in line with the dollar (although, it never seems to go back down at the sales counter!). Or, are they just not making them like they used to? I mean volume, not quality.

Enquiring minds want to know.

Bruce

[Pettifogger]

Ruger didn't stop making the Old Army because they were overwhelmed with sales!  C&B guns take more time and effort to shoot than cartridge guns.  Also once purchased, they last a long time cause they don't get shot near as much so there isn't much of a repeat customer base.  When a new crop of shooters starts demanding more product, they will make more.  Kind of like Disney movies.  All they have to do is drag them out every ten years of so and they have a whole new audience.

[Fiddler Green]

Ruger didn't stop making the Old Army because they were overwhelmed with sales!

I don't believe that Umberti or Pietta stopped making guns because they were overwhelmed with sales.

My point is: they ( the retailers) don't seem to want to sell them anymore. Why?

As far as it being more work? I shoot cap and ball all the time. I average 1 1/2 days a week there....shooting cap and ball and muzzle loaders. Yea, it's more work at the range but less at home. Would I rather be at the range reloading or in the garage. I'll vote for the range!

Bruce

Bruce
[/quote]

[Deadguy]

I know where they all went.  Alabama bought them all up!  There are still plenty of them out there, I haven't had any problems finding them for my customers, and they've asked for some rarer ones, like steel framed Colt Army Civilian models.  Don't worry, they are out there.  Cabelas still has a great selection of them on their website, as well as Taylor's and Buffalo Arms as well, just to name a few.

[Alabama]

Ha ha ha ,
your halfway right there Deadguy .   I get most of mine from Taylors , Dixie , and two other Suttlers I use for very special requests .
I also agree that there is allot of demand for the nicer ones now these days , the Old Silver Engraved ones , Rogers and Spencers ( engraved $650 ) , Uberti Case Hardened Remingtons , nicer stuff like that. There is MORE people using C and B today than ever there ever was so it is just that Cabelas sucks at displaying all they sell in that small book . I get the master book from Cabelas they send me each time it comes out and they are ALL in there . It is that simple . Even the Cabelas store I visited recently only has six C and B guns , but thousands of Modern guns . I can attest that them is going up in price too ! So they are plenty popular trust me . I paid $400 four years ago when the Old Sliver Engraved was rare and new and I just paid $535 without shipping for my last one .
The last Remington 58 I bought from Taylors was $360 without shipping , but it was VERY nice too .
They are out there , but Cabelas aint the best or only place to get them . Any gunshop that wants your money will order anything you want, so just order what you want instead of trying to find it at a retailers you visit . Plus the store you ordered from will more than likely keep your bullets balls powder in stock year round for you if you keep ordering from them .
Hey Deadguy , yes I buy allot , but I don't make anymore money than any of you do , I just have small bills and NO KIDS thank God , its that simple .

Alabama

[Riot Earp]

I have read that the Italians take the month of August off.

Even so, I checked Midway. Most of their cap & ball guns are in stock, including the one I ordered a few weeks back. There are a few models that must be backordered, but this is pretty normal for Midway and the other online retailers.

Pettifogger is right. C&B guns take more time and effort to shoot than cartridge guns. The demand is short of overwhelming. The Ruger example is a sound one. Those of us who love them and/or shoot them must acknowledge that we are in the minority. The local Gander Mountain has had four Piettas sitting in their display case for years. No one has bought them, and from the looks of them, few people have handled them. Of course, I'm in the East. That doesn't help. But zero sales in about three years is not encouraging.

[Ransom Gaer]

Wherever I have ordered a C&B revolver I have been able to get it.  But that doesn't mean the demand is overwhelming.  At the monthly matches I normally shoot and it doesn't matter whether it is in the Denver area where I use to live or here in Mississippi I am typically the only one shooting C&B.  There really aren't that many of us.  The only exception I have seen is at Winter Range and even then in the grand scheme of things there weren't that many of us.  On the All BP Posse a year ago there were 7 of us shooting Frontiersman and about half were using Rugers and the rest Colt style revolvers.

Not that I mind, I like being a bit different and I don't mind the extra work involved.  I have found that it draws attention from other members on the posse.  Some are very curious about what we C&B shooters are up to.  Besides it gives me the opportunity to tell everybody else that those new fangled cartridge revolvers will never catch on.

Ransom Gaer

[Alabama]

Couple years ago me and my Pappy  ( my Pappy and I   )  went to the Bass Pro shop in Destin Florida , near Dothan round about by the Gulf . Went in to check it out , me to look at cap and ball revolvers,  him fishing lures. They had four revolvers I told him we just travelled 80-ish miles for me to look at guns in person because they had a nice selection on thier web-site  , and they only had four cap and ball revolvers ? I was pissed . My Dad told me us Hill-Billies are lazy and we don't have the patience to sit and load those guns anymore .
I kindly reminded him I was not a hill-billy , he was , and I am a redneck that has lots of time , so lets go .
I can think of " NOTHING " I like more than loading my gun ? How about you ? Well maybe sex , maybe .
Unfortunetly he is half right as useual , people , hill-billy , redneck , or normal Yankee folk are LAZY in general .
You don't hear complaints from people that actually love to shoot these things now do ya . You hear allot of whining from people whom have never shot them though about what a drag it is to own one though ? Which is fine , leaves more for me to buy Deadguy !!!!     As long as I am alive there will be a market to sell to .  

Alabama

[Fiddler Green]

Wherever I have ordered a C&B revolver I have been able to get it.  But that doesn't mean the demand is overwhelming.  At the monthly matches I normally shoot and it doesn't matter whether it is in the Denver area where I use to live or here in Mississippi I am typically the only one shooting C&B.  There really aren't that many of us.  The only exception I have seen is at Winter Range and even then in the grand scheme of things there weren't that many of us. 

I see that same thing. I've been to matches of two of the three local clubs and I was the only one with C&B revolvers. Lots of people shot BP cartridges and call it "Black Powder" and I guess it is. But, to me, if you didn't pour it into the gun, what's the sense?

The cartridge shooters say "I don't like cleaning my guns all the time" It makes me wonder what they do when they get done shooting.  Put them away dirty?    Then they say it takes to long to reload, that they like shooting to much. But, I reload too and it seems to take as long to reload 100 rounds as it does to reload 100 times.

Hummmmm.... now that I think about it, I think it takes longer to prep and reload brass tehn it takes to pour powder into my cylinders and then stuff a ball down after it. So, I guess that the cartridge shooters DON'T like to shot that much so they don't!  Whereas we C&B shooters like to spend more time at the range and we like to shoot more! 

Bruce

[Ransom Gaer]

I have a broader view of shootin' BP kind of as a result of shootin' CAS.  Before getting into CAS I shot true muzzleloaders and was to some degree involved in the mountain man and rendevous scene.  So it was sorta natural once I got into CAS that I would shoot BP.  So I also include BP cartridge shootin' in my definition of BP.  In fact from the very beginning of my time in CAS I was planning on shooting C&B at some point.  Now I shoot C&B pistols almost exclusively.  Every pnce in awhile I shoot cartridge revolvers fo a change, but I always go back to C&B.  It's all fun and that's what's important.

The reason they don't like cleaning their guns is that cleaning smokeyless is such a pain and you have to use those nasty chemicals.  What I have found and this is true of all BP shooters in CAS is that BP fouling is water soluble, so I use hot water and cheap dish soap to clean.   It is so easy and quick.  And I am slower than many.

A case in point about shooting more with C&B.  A year ago last Christmas I went to the range one day to shoot.  I took my 1911A1, '92 Winchester and an 1860 Army.  I put 200 rounds through the 1911.  That took about half an hour.   Put fifty rounds through the '92.  Didn't take very long at ten rounds per magazine.  Put 75 rounds through the 1860 Army.  I was trying to see how many rounds it would go before locking up.  Had to quit 'cause it was getting dark and it was closing time at the range.  DRAT.  It never did lock up.  It wasn't even stiff.  And it didn't take any longer for me to clean than if I had shot only 30 rounds(6 stages) through it.  It was still accurate too.  That was a fun day.

For me it doesn't take that long to load a C&B revolver.  It takes me about two minutes to load five rounds in a cylinder(when I'm not interupted, rare).  That includes 30 grains BP, lubed wad and .454 rb.  At some matches I spend a bit of time explaining to the unintiated what I am doing.  I use it as a way to teach the true path and maybe someday I will turn someone to the Darkside and C&B. 

My technique for brass isn't that involved.  At a match I throw the spent brass in a bucket with water and dish soap to soak and when I get home I rinse and dry and then put it all in the tumbler to really clean.  That takes a total of about fifteen minutes.

Ransom Gaer

[Alabama]

Since were tellin tales now , true ones , I got one for ya too about an experience with my old friend that I brought my 3rd Model Dragoon Signature Series over to when it was brand new , many many many years ago now .
I went over the whole loading thing with him because were gonna shoot this beast that day . So I proceeded to load her up grease her up and shoot her up . WOW ! It was impressive , even to him and he doesn't impress easy . That was 50 gr. that day , so yes it was allot of smoke and fire . I made him load it himslef after I was done with that cylinder full . He shot his , said that was cool .
He asked me how much that cost me for the Revolver . I paid $399 way back then and when I told him his eyes rolled and got a mean look on his face and asked me why would you pay $399 for that when you could have had a real gun ?
I knew right then I would never see eye to eye with my dear old friend . No matter how much explainin I did to him that this was a real gun he just couldn't understand how I could pay $399 for a Colt BP gun ?

So there it is , some people just will never get it , and I am glad they actually don't . If I actually understood him and was in agreement with him , then there I would be like him now wouldn't I ? I would not like BP guns , I would not own BP guns , and I would be out of having all this fun with all of you today too . That would suck !
I don't shoot much modern anymore ? I get the accuracy of any modern gun out of my c and b's easilly and then some in most of my good ones anyhow , plus the smoke, the fire , and the grease , I love it , burry me in soot when I die , I will be a happy Zombie    !!!!!!

Some people don't get it , but I always recruit !!!!! I at least try , because when its succsessfull and your recruit looks back at you with a dumb look from the fireing line after popping his first load off from a C and B revolver ( especially a Walker or Dragoon ) , that look is priceless !!! You KNOW right then if they love it or hate it , but if they love it the look is speachless and there mouth is open , chin dropped , and a wicked freekin smile comes your way .  Now that's what life is all about , the smile 

Alabama , just more food for thought 

[Dick Dastardly]

Where have all the C&B guns gone?  Gone to Cowboy matches every one. . . When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn. .

DD-DLoS

[Riot Earp]

Recruiting is essential if we want cap & ball shooting to outlast our generation. I remember a guy on one of the other black powder websites. He told the story of his 12- or 13-year-old niece who he got into cap & ball shooting. She got into it so much that she worked up all her own loads and invited all her little girlfriends to the range with her--and her friends' parents approved! (This must be in the West ... That would never happen here in New York!) She eventually acquired several guns and was eagerly looking forward to another, which her uncle was going to buy her when she earned enough money. What a great great story.

[Dalton Masterson]

Dont go by Cabelas Master catalog. Look at the Shooting catalog. They are still there. DM

[Fiddler Green]

For me it doesn't take that long to load a C&B revolver.  It takes me about two minutes to load five rounds in a cylinder(when I'm not interupted, rare).  That includes 30 grains BP, lubed wad and .454 rb.  At some matches I spend a bit of time explaining to the unintiated what I am doing.  I use it as a way to teach the true path and maybe someday I will turn someone to the Darkside and C&B. 

Yea, about half the rounds that get fired out of my C&B guns are by others. I'm notorious, at the local range (Markley's), for getting women to fire my .50 Hawkens rifle. It's funny, but, the guys are afraid to shoot it and women will without much coaxing. I've talked four people into getting C&B guns so far. And I've had allot of guys from DLI and the Naval Post Graduate School have tried mine and expressed an interest in getting them.

My technique for brass isn't that involved.  At a match I throw the spent brass in a bucket with water and dish soap to soak and when I get home I rinse and dry and then put it all in the tumbler to really clean.  That takes a total of about fifteen minutes.

Then you resize it. Then you prime it. Then you pour a messured load of powder into it. Then you seat the bullet. Then you crimp it. Then you put it in the box. Then you put it in the gun.

That's what I'm talking about when I talk about the loading time for cartriges.

Bruce

[Fiddler Green]

Dont go by Cabelas Master catalog. Look at the Shooting catalog. They are still there. DM

Yea, I know. My point or my concern is that this is the begining of a movement by the "big box" retailers to stop offering C&B guns. I know, that may sound paranoid and probably is. But, remember, I live in California and we have a way of doing away with anything fun!

[Dr. Bob]

And that's why I am quite happy to live here in "fly over" country!  Less chance of getting hit by a twister than being in a quake and the state legislatures know that the NRA has a lot of voters and will put their feet to the fire if the head in the wrong direction.

[Alabama]

Yea, I know. My point or my concern is that this is the begining of a movement by the "big box" retailers to stop offering C&B guns. I know, that may sound paranoid and probably is. But, remember, I live in California and we have a way of doing away with anything fun!

Its not a real movement Fiddler Green , esepcially if your basing this on Cabelas lack of putting out good books with all thier products in them or lack of carrying guns in thier stores .They have been doing that for years . I am always disapointed when I get any copy except the shooting version because thier lack of entertaining what I feel is the most important product they carry . Not having every gun in thier stores is a big mistake for OUR promoting the sport but it is simple economics for them . They are a conglomerant and just could give a rats butt about promotion other than promoting thier profits. Its that simple, if its selling good they stock it, if its not they don't .Thats good bussiness for them but not very loyal to the people whom want to have a place to buy C and B's and that still buy from them to get them .
As long as there is Cowboy and CowGirl action shooting , there will always be enough market to carry cap and ball guns , it just may not be at Cabelas or in California at some point . I was never into this sport until now inmy life, so I have been INTO cap and ball guns though for way over 20 years , so the market was there then too , it was just small . Now its HUGE compaired . If you count just how many pistols Cabelas sells , it is staggering compaird to ANYONE elses except Dixie Gun Works and Midway ( which most at Midway are on backorder which is NO GOOD EVER ) . That is an impressive market share actually that they offer to the public . Our sport is just fine and so are availablity of cap and ball guns , and will be for a good long time as long as YOU keep buying them too .
Promotion is purchasing , purchasing is promotion . 

Oh and Dalton  , your right again , it is the shooting book I was refering too , not the Master . Good catch, at least your paying attention 
I try to be accurate , but its all a blurr some times with me . Too much smoke in the air ! BP smoke that is . 

Sincerely, Alabama

[Dick Dastardly]

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/index/index-display.jsp?id=cat20817

Here are some.

DD-DLoS

[Ace Lungger]

 :)Howdy Pards,
Since I am new to this sport, and did decide to buy C&B revolers just to have something different to do. I looked at a lot of different models and since here where I live I didn't know anyone that shot c&b, I didn't have a lot of choices so I went to Calebla's web sight and started looking, the pistol I liked the looks of best was the 1851Navy Us Marshall, I have small hands and a lot of pistols don't fell good to me! I told a good friend of mine what I wanted and was going to get and he found me a beautifill used one there where he lives in S.C. so I bought it, then order one from Cabela's to match took 2 months to get it. In my opition something wrong with there system. After I got my new one, 2 weeks later they sent me a letter telling me that I had 2 weeks to pick up the gun I order Where are there heads? My only wish was that the new gun would of have as nice of grips as my used one, and would of been the price of the used one! I will post a pic of the Used gun, I think they are still out there, I just don't think retail  stores stock them as much as they did?
Just my thoughts!
ACE
Sorry about posting the pic 2 times! that is the same gun, I have never taken a pic of the new one!