Just how fast were the old guns?

[RowdyBill]

Thinking of the gunfighters of the Old West and how most of them focused more on accuracy than speed.  Just a few, I can think of, were into the quick draw:  Cullen Baker (maybe the guy who invented quick draw), Wes Hardin, Billy the Kid, Johnny Ringo, maybe a couple of others.  But the vast majority seemed to be in fights where often "the other guy" fired first and our historical gunfighter fired last.  Were the gunfighters even that great at marksmanship?  I think that the James Gang got trashed by farmers and townsfolk in Northfield makes me wonder how good they were.   Hard to say.

What do you think?  Did the historical gunfighters fill the boots of their legends?

[St. George]

This is one of those topics that's been hashed over numerous times and much can be found in the Archives over at TFS as well as here.

The whole idea of the "fastest gun" came from the Dime Novels, and later - Hollywood.

Hollywood would eventually be responsible for the Buscadero rigs, the steel-lined holster of the '50's TV heroes and the "Fast Draw" clubs - to include the old "Walk and Draw" competitions that these various celluliod heroes would participate in.
In that light - did you realize that two modern actors were amongst the fastest?
Jerry Lewis and Sammy Davis, Jr...

Despite what 'Western writers' would have you believe - the leather of the time was designed to hold a revolver - like a pouch - not expose it to the elements for a fast draw - and it wasn't steel-lined, or loaded with tallow to facilitate speed.

Original leather and its many accurate copies was designed to be functional and oftentimes decorative as well - and not to make its wearer into Billy Badass.

The reality was the winner was the guy who could take his time in a hurry and didn't get flapped when someone shot at him.

The James/Younger Gang didn't "get trashed by farmers and townsfolk" in the sense that you mean 'farmers and townsfolk' as somewhat weak and ineffectual.
They made the tactical error of encountering a large number of Civil War veterans to whom killing wasn't the novelty you might think.
When you've seen and lived through Antietam and Cold Harbor and Shiloh - killing some Border Trash was like killing rats in the barn - a good thing to do.

For an interesting, historical perspective - look to the various references like:

"The Gunfighters" - Time-Life
"The Age of the Gunfighter" - Rosa
"The Gunfighter: Man or Myth" - Rosa

And there are many, many more that are solidly accurate in their research that you can usually find at a good Public Library.

You'll soon see that life in the Frontier West didn't resemble a SASS shoot at all.

Scouts Out!

[tarheel mac]

I don't know, trying to figure how fast the old timers were is, to me, a bit like looking at your apple trees and grapevines to figure out how many oranges you are going to get.  There are just too many varibles you have to factor in and you can't[i possibly get everything right.

Hickok was pretty fast, especially when you consider the way he carried his pistols. Billy the Kid, Hardin, and Clay Allison were also reportely, pretty quick as well.  But what St. George says about modern equipement vs. their old leather holds true.  The holsters of 100 plus years ago just weren't intended for speed.  In a match with one of men I mentioned and a "quick draw champion" of today, my money would be on Hickcock, The Kid, Hardin or Allison. 

And St. George brings up a good point when he talks about the James/Younger's debacle at Northfield.  They also, reportedly, had the bad luck to pick a town of deer hunters.  According to the story,it was Clell Miller who talked Jesse into trying the bank in Northfield, and it became a rifle vs. pistol contest pretty quickly.  Personally I don't think I would pick a handgun against a rifle. 

A whole lot of trees have been killed writing articles and books about this...Two books I remember are "Triggerometery" by Cummings (I think) and "Gunfighters" by Rosa. 

It is an interesting subject, but until someone invents a time machine, I don't think it is one that will settled easily.

[Delmonico]

One question, how does any one really know these guys were fast?  Heresay evidence over a 100 years old?  Won't hold up in court.  The best were fast enough and accurate enough to kill or cripple the other guy before they got killed or crippled. That's all you need.

As for farmers and towns folk, I would not want to take on the citizens of any small town in my area, folks that grow up with guns behind the door and in window racks tend to know how to use them.  Ask any coyote who shows up out in the yard some mornin.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I'm with Delmonico on this. Anyone who grew up in a rural area where just about everyone has at least one gun is certainly proficient with it. In the 1800's, it was a daily tool except in the cities, and there it was not uncommon for people to have them and know how to use them. When I was a kid, it was really surprising to meet someone who didn't have a rifle. We felt sorry for them, like they were deprived or something. We'd just take that person out and let 'em shoot ours. No big deal.

[Scattered Thumbs]

Me thinks the correct answer is: Fast enough. 

[Silver Creek Slim]

It is rare to find someone in my township that is not a hunter and/or target shooter.

Slim

[Forty Rod]

Most folks up until the mid 1920s had been in one war or another, fought Indians and Mexican border jumpers, cattle thieves and general purpose hooligans.  They had also faced wind, weather, disease, injury, suffering, and pain. 

I've never liked High Noon because I couls never believe a town full of people would act that way.  I think if the town were threatened they would  stand with the law.


They wouldn't involve themselves in a personal fight maybe, but this one included an official of the town.

[RowdyBill]

Most folks up until the mid 1920s had been in one war or another, fought Indians and Mexican border jumpers, cattle thieves and general purpose hooligans.  They had also faced wind, weather, disease, injury, suffering, and pain. 

I've never liked High Noon because I couls never believe a town full of people would act that way.  I think if the town were threatened they would  stand with the law.


They wouldn't involve themselves in a personal fight maybe, but this one included an official of the town.

I think you're right about high noon unrealistically depicting townsfolk as cowards.  Whatever town it was, it sure wasn't Northfield or Coffeyville.  Now I could see modern townsfolk acting that way, not rural, but urbanties, sure.  Of course, there's always the chance there's one CAS member mixed in with the townsfolk who will give the outlaws a run for their money.

[jrdudas]

Since the discussion has included talk about rural folk I thought I'd pass on this true story.

The year was 1984 and I had just moved to S.E. Ohio from Tucson.  It seems that three city folks drove out to a small rural town to relieve a local bank of its funds.  Now this is a small town we're talking about; one gas station across the road from the bank.  An employee at the gas station sees a unknown car stop in front of the bank and two guys go inside.  One guy stays in the car with the engine running.  The gas station employee calls his sister who works in the bank and when she answers (not sure why the crooks let her answer) the phone he asks if they are being robbed.  She says yes!  The two crooks run out of the bank with the loot and jump into the car.  About the time the car door closes, a load of 12 gauge goes thru their radiator and another thru the gas tank.  They speed off but don't get far in the crippled car and are picked up by the sheriff in a corn field.

The big city dudes apparently thought they outclassed the locals, but got a surprise instead.

John
   

[Forty Rod]

Y'all are gonna love the final Chapter of Legend.

[Four-Eyed Buck]

i know, Forty! One has to remember back in the days of the James and Daltons that there was no bank insurance. If it was robbed, those who had money there were just plain out. so, it was in everybody's interest to ensure that it stayed there. Also, the main way of getting meat on the table was the shotgun or rifle for many. They were tools of survival just like the plow and scyth. As for the gunmen or later called gunfighters. speed out of leather wasn't as important as keeping your cool and making the shot count. They were masters at judging the other fellow. The most important thing was not letting the other guy get the drop on you. The old element of surprise thing. In the Wyatt book by Silva, he devotes an appendice to the Gun Fighter myth and truth. Goes a long way to explain some of it. He goes into the difference between the movie rigs and the actual ones used then..........Buck

[Forty Rod]

I've always thought that being "fast" with a gun related more to the willingness to resort to using a gun than to the speed out of the holster.

I would also think, however, that a man who would be likely to use a gun at the drrop of a hat would also be a man who would have the best equipment he could obtain, and would practice his proficiency with it, including getting it into play the fasted way he could.

Having seen the leather goods and the way they were worn, both because of the styles of the day, and the customs and legalities as well, I can't believe that  anyone was all that fast from the holster.

On the other hand, if someone were facing a gunman and thought that way and was wrong............................!

[Four-Eyed Buck]

In a nutshell, yer right, Forty..........Buck

[CanChaserKate]

Cousin John Wesley "Wes" Hardin has my vote for fastest and deadliest.

[tarheel mac]

You know, Kate, after studying on the matter some, I'm still gonna go with Hickok....When he went for one of those Navys in his sash, his only thought was to make sure he walked away from the trouble and the other guy didn't...I know old John Wesley ran up a respectable score himself, but I think Wild Bill would have shaded him one on one...(and Yeah I know all aboutHardin and Hickok supposedly going head to head once with John Wesley coming out on top, but I don't buy a bit  of it...)

[Delmonico]

I think you both had ought to go back and read the rest of the posts and give up on Hollywood. ;DYa been watchin' too much Gunsmoke and readin' Zane Gray.

[Forty Rod]

Yay, Del!

[Delmonico]

Ta put it in terms that is easier to under stand, the most expensive custom rifle and the fanciest telascopic sight ain't gonna kill no deer unless it don't bother you to line up the sight and pull the trigger with out wettin' yer pants or sitting there and watchin' that cute deer walk away.  Some damned ol redneck like me a'll just look, say that looks like one I want to eat and then shoot it, gut it cut it up and cook it and eat it. 

No gunfighter, no matter how fast is gonna be worth a damned at it unless he can look at the person and shoot them down with out even thinkin' about it, kinda like I would do a rat that showed up.  Thinkin' about what yer doin' would get you killed, no BS about how fast you can pull yer gun out against a clock would do ya any good.

As for those two, they were good cause they could kill a man and not think about it or let it bother them.  And both were smart enough to get the drop on a man if needed.

Perhaps one of the best gunfighters was Print Olive, nobody knows how many he killed cause he didn't brag about it and was good at hidin' bodies, he killed a man who was faster than him and drove the chain of his watch into his groin.  Print just used a 44cal 60 Army instead the lighter 36cal  51 Navy.  The slower bigger gun was the one that killed.  And if you have never heard of Print ya need to do some more studyin' of gunman, cause ya ain't even scratched the surface.

Perhaps Tom Threepersons was the best, a little late, early 1920's but you can't discount him.  Nope studied the subject a lot, won't even try to say one was better, Bill Tilman lived to a ripe old age and was killed in the line of duty when he was in his 70's by a crooked cop, a sneak that he should not have had to worry about, trusting someone got him killed.  Ya want me to name more that most have not heard about, good PR don't make ya good.