BP loads too "hot" for 1897 Winchester clone?

Deadguy · August 16, 2008, 06:02:10 PM

I've been shooting BP loads in my Win '97 clone, and at today's CAS match, everybody was runnin' skeered from me every time I shot it. I was the only person shooting BP, and the sound and concussion of 12 gauge BP rounds from a shotgun was scaring everyone, because it does not sound like the heathen powder. People were tellin' me to back off on the powder loads, but in reality, the loads are light enough that they don't make my gun jump off target or even leave a bruise on my shoulder, unlike most heathen powder loads. They were all telling me that a '97 clone can't handle "loud" loads for very long before it breaks. Is it possible for a black powder load to damage a modern '97 clone? Or has the heathen powder weakened some fellow CAS shooters?

Dick Dastardly · August 16, 2008, 06:28:48 PM

Ho Deadguy,

First of all, NO, your bp loads won't even challenge a modern gun. They simply don't build enough pressure. Stay with roughly a 'square' load and you'll be fine.

It sounds like you were in the company of heathens. They don't understand the noble report of a good Holy Black load. We BOOM, they piff. They seek 'featherlite' loads and 'ultralite' loads. I think they would shoot one bb if they could get away with it. Soon to come, SASS legal air rifle loads. . . .

If you shoot a One ounce load of shot pushed by your favorite wad column over a VOLUME of powder equal to 1 oz of shot, that's a 'square' load. Choose your powder charge for best pattern. Your gun will talk with you if you shoot some paper.

Then, take out those pesky KDs and just grin when those heathens can't make 'em topple. I did just that today with my little 20ga SxS 311. I had several comments that it sounded like "plenty of power". I said, yup, but the KDs are DOWN. All day, one shot each. .

Happy bp shotgunning.

DD-DLoS

Ransom Gaer · August 16, 2008, 07:00:13 PM

Deadguy,

Like DD said you musta been with a bunch of heathens. I wish I had been at that match, it sounds like it was a lot of fun scarin' those heathens.

I have put a bunch of 1 1/8 oz square loads of BP shotgun shells through a 101 year old Winchester 1897 with np problems whatsoever. And it sure was fun.

Ransom Gaer

litl rooster · August 16, 2008, 07:39:29 PM

DD speaks with wisdom, have only shot BP in mine and a little stouter than 1 oz.... You convince a Heathen to try it in his shotty for less recoil, they be prowling and lurking the pages here seeking reload info.

Driftwood Johnson · August 16, 2008, 07:50:34 PM

QuoteThey were all telling me that a '97 clone can't handle "loud" loads for very long before it breaks. Is it possible for a black powder load to damage a modern '97 clone? Or has the heathen powder weakened some fellow CAS shooters?

Howdy

They simply don't know what they are talking about. The original Winchester 1897 was designed for Smokeless powder, unlike the original 1887, which was not. Black Powder loads almost never develop as much pressure as Smokeless powder loads. A modern made 1897 made with modern steel will not be hurt by Black Powder loads. Smokeless shooters often assume that since Black Powder loads are louder, they will stress a gun more. It ain't so, BP pressures are usually much lower than Smokeless pressures.

Deadguy · August 16, 2008, 07:57:50 PM

That's what I thought. I have shot a lot of these loads, and have yet to have a problem. By the way, my loads wre a little stouter than the ones you guys listed, at 1 1/4 oz shot over an equal volume of powder, with an overs powder card and a skinny cushion wad in between... But still, I got that load from an old shotshell loading chart for hunting loads, so it should be OK. Do the heathens worry that much about everything?

Deadguy · August 16, 2008, 08:00:30 PM

BTW, it was a blast (literally) having those heathens flinch and scatter every time a shot! A few actually came up to me afterwards and complained about how the "concussion waves" from my loads bothered them as I shot!

sundance44`s · August 16, 2008, 08:39:28 PM

Only one thing comes to mind ..Tell`em if yer scared say yer scared !

Ransom Gaer · August 16, 2008, 08:50:42 PM

Deadguy,

Both years I've been to Winter Range I've had the pleasure of shooting with other BP shooters. Last year I was on the all BP posse. With a number of the BP shooters I could feel the concussion from their rifles. It was really cool. I'm sure my 1860 Henry was producing the same concussion waves, but I didn't notice it with mine.

Those heathens are always fun to mess with. And they're so easy to mess with.

Ransom Gaer

Deadguy · August 16, 2008, 09:51:18 PM

Well, in that case, maybe I should up my powder charge a little more, compressing it even tighter to fit, and see what those heathens do at the next match...

Dr. Bob · August 17, 2008, 12:33:21 AM

Deadguy,

You're a WARTHOG for sure!!

Good on ya!

Deadguy · August 17, 2008, 08:15:54 AM

Come to think of it, they were a bit concerned over the Dragoon I was shooting as well. Apparently, a Dragoon with a 40 grain charge of FFF pushing a 200 grain bullet is a bit loud for their tastes as well....

Dick Dastardly · August 17, 2008, 09:17:36 AM

Howdy Deadguy,

All brass Magtech shells are once again available for a mite less than an arm and a leg. They have more internal volume than any of the plastic or paper hulls. You will want 11 gauge Circle Fly wads - http://www.circlefly.com. Give them a call and tell 'em exactly what hull you are loading and how you want to load it. They are VERY helpful and will suggest the exact wad you want. I'd also tell 'em what gun you are shooting.

Those all brass shells hold a LOT more stuff than any others. They really look cool and can deliver more payload at a higher velocity than any others.

DD-DLoS

P.S. Tell the RO not to step on 'em.

Deadguy · August 17, 2008, 09:35:24 AM

So the brass shells should really send the heathens running... so, to fill them up, I'd probably need a load of 1 and a half ounces of shot with 100 grains of BP and a fat wad? I guy at another shoot I went to was using those. Heis load was 45 grains BP, a Circle Fly wad, and 1 1/8 ounce of shot, and it still left the shell half empty.

Steel Horse Bailey · August 17, 2008, 11:28:46 AM

Deadguy, the term W-I-M-P comes to mind here.

You keep up the good work! It's your sworn DUTY to keep those ~~wimps~~ heathens running scared from your BOOMS, flames and smoke! Somebody has to remind them what REAL shooting is like!

That goes for all your BP guns - that Dragoon wasn't designed for 15 grs of powder and some breakfast food! My LIGHT load for my Dragoon is around 40 grs! And it's accurate that way - as is my Colt 1860 with 30-35 grs: those guns LIKE to shoot hard!!

Sincerely,

Jeff "Steel Horse Bailey" (who is proud to say that lately he's been getting comments - admiring - from some of his fellow shooters asking "just how much BP are you shooting?" And they're USED to full power loads!)

Ransom Gaer · August 17, 2008, 04:55:02 PM

Just got home from the match with the Gallant Gunfighters in Hoover Al. They were complainin' about my BP loads. HEE HEE.

In my Magtechs I use 70 grains with 1 1/8 oz. shot. Works great. They're real LOUD.

Steel Horse Baily, My 1860 Armies like a minimum of 30 grains too. Haven't tried 35 'cause I never take my adjustable powder measure with me. It's so easy to use my 30 grain spout on my powder flask.

Ransom Gaer

Driftwood Johnson · August 18, 2008, 07:58:51 AM

Howdy Again

I'm sure a 1 1/4 ounce square load of BP will not hurt your '97, but my personal feeling is you are wasting powder and shot. I don't see any need for anything more than 1 1/8 ounce loads in CAS, and most guys shoot quite a bit less than that. 1 ounce or 7/8 ounce. No wonder they think you are hurting your gun. Of course, it's your money.

Would you do me a favor, just for the fun of it, and weigh one of your powder charges? I would be curious to know how much powder, and what brand and granulation, you are using.

Just so you know, Black Powder shotgun loads were often measured in drams. There are 16 drams in an ounce, and 16 ounces in a pound. A dram is 27.34375 grains. Modern light loads are often 2 3/4 dram (about 75 grains) equivallent. 3 drams are considered a bit heavier (about 82 grains).

Deadguy · August 18, 2008, 09:12:55 AM

I am using a 3 Dram load of powder (homemade BP from pine charcoal, not nearly as powerful as the willow charcoal I usually use, but it works in the shotgun, so might as well use it up there), and I was using 1 1/8 oz of shot, but I went up to 1 1/4 oz because it patterned better.

Bull Schmitt · August 18, 2008, 11:59:17 AM

I like to load my BP shells so that when I touch one off cowboys say "What was that"!!, ladies faint, little girls wet their knickers, and little boys say "I want one"!

Wills Point Pete · August 19, 2008, 03:25:19 AM

Oddly the last shoot I had before my shoulder surgery I had lightened my powder charge considerably. I got chewed out by someone because some shot splashed back. We then figured out that the shotgun targets were only five yards out.
Since I was using a two and a half dram charge with one and three eighths of shot I doubt my powder charge was excessive. Too many folks equate loud with powerful. Looking at the chairman of the DNC should disprove that theory.