Leech and Rigdon Question

[Alabama]

Howdoo Pardners 

Leech and Rigdon from Uberti question before I buy one .
What backstrap trigger guard configuration is this revolver , an 1851 , 1861 , or is it all its own design ?
If its its own design, is it simular to anything , 1851 , 1861 ?

Thanks ,

Alabama

[Pettifogger]

It's basically just a 51 Navy with the front of the barrel made round.  All other parts are the same.  If you could get a barrel from VTI, all you would have to do is swap it for the barrel off a regular 51.

[John E. Ringo]

It's an attractive gun. I actually prefer it to the '51 Navy. But the '61 is the prettiest. 

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[Flint]

Per Pettifogger's suggestion, VTI could supply a '61 barrel as well, and that would convert the '51 to a '61, except for the gripframe which should be steel on a '61.

Putting a '61 barrel on a London '51 would make it indistinguishable from a '61. 

[Riot Earp]

According to this site ...

http://www.geocities.com/oldwestguns/1861_Navy.html

... only 100 of over 38,000 1861 Navies were cut for a shoulder stock and (presumably) had iron grip frames. Brass grip frames were standard. In fact, I've never seen an original with an iron grip frame.

Not sure why the Italians make 'em with four-screw frames when evidently so few originals had 'em. My Uberti has a three-screw frame and brass grip frame, but they are harder to find.

[Ransom Gaer]

Alabama,

I have one of the Uberti made Leech and Rigdon pistols.  Nice little revolver.  It has basically an 1851 Navy grip.  The backstrap is brass and it has a rounded brass triggerguard.  The grips themselves are standard 1851 Navy.

One other difference from the 1851 Navy besides the round barrel is the cylinder has no naval scene engraved on it.

Biggest problem with it is that it is so close in appearance to the 1851 Navy from ten feet away, no one comments on it 'cause they think it is just a plain old 1851 Navy.

Ransom Gaer

[Alabama]

Thanks for all the info yall .   
Just got home from working or I woulda responded sooner .
So in a nutshell its and 1851 with the barrel configuration different, and it has an 1851 trigger guard and backstrap, not an 1861 Navy, which I know is different , definately different than the 1851 . I think i got it .
I like the 1861 and the 1851's backstraps , so this scheme will be just fine for me on this model .

Alabama

[River City John]

For reference here is an image of an original. Other than the cutout area for loading bullets being rounded and opened up more on the original, the Uberti is very close copy. Originals were stamped "LEECH & RIGDON" on the top flat of the rear of the barrel, but unmarked examples are known. That and they were made from iron and not modern steels.

[Pettifogger]

The 61 Navy and 51 Navy have the same grip frames.  The 61 is just a 51 Navy with a round barrel and the creeping loading lever.  The 1860 Army grips are different.

[Alabama]

Thanks Pettifogger ,
But ,
I always thought a 61 was slightly different ? I guess if 1/8 inch is different to you or I , they are different . Especially to my eye .
I just put a Micrometer to a dozen varieties , ( cuiosity killed the cowboys cat ) Uberti and Pietta 51's and 61's and there is an 1/8" difference between 51's and 61's in length at butt tip to toe between heel and toe Steel and brass backstraps . Technically , they are different if your into splitting hairs , and I aint .  Then again 1/8" is a pretty big hair ( Sasquwatch hair so I am told ). I can even see that in my display cases side by side , pistol to pistol , it aint much but I can certainly see it . Even from Uberti to Pietta there is the same 1/8 inch respectivley pistol to pistol per material , brass and steel . Must be the milling of the brass , as that is the ones that are bigger by 1/8" on either variety , Uberti or Pietta . Micrometers don't lie  Unelss they are electrical with low batteries . And that aint what I use . 

Alabama

[Riot Earp]

Pettifogger might be referring to the original Colts. I believe the '51 and '61 used the same grip frame.

[Alabama]

Thanks Riot Erap ,
I learn stuff here constantly , that sounds about right on the originals, for some reason my head was on Reproductions obviously .

Thnaks again, both of ya.

Alabama

[Flint]

Pettifogger is referring to size and shape.  The 51 and 61 are the same except for the material, the 61 backstrap and triggerguard are steel, the 51 is of brass, except the London Model which is/was steel. Original Colts 51 brass gripframes were Silver plated, but it is worn off of most originals except those kept in pristine collector's condition.  Silver can be detected in the corners of many originals.

The 1860 is longer by about 1/4 inch, and has a brass triggerguard and steel backstrap, except for the "Civilian" model which has a brass backstrap as well.

Original Colts had the Navy size gripframe on the SAA as well, but it seems the Italian repros SAA gripframes look a bit more beefy than the 51/61 frames, perhaps it's illusion.  I haven't tried to swap the wood between the Italian SAA and Navies.

All the metal parts of the gripframes are interchangable as far as the screw pattern between the 51, 60, 61 and SAA, but as the finished receiver frames vary in actual dimension, some are wider or narrower, or assymetrical when finally fitted to a particular frame, so swapping can be a problem between finished guns.

[John E. Ringo]

Flint, most of the original 1861s had brass backstraps and trigger guards. Check out gunbroker and/or the antique arms sites. 

Examples:

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=18135
http://antiquearmsinc.com/marked-colt-1861-navy-revolver.htm
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=106355505
http://collectorebooks.com/gregg01/coltrevolver/Lot-418.htm
http://www.armes-antiques.com/en/15/colt-cal-36-model-1861-navy--88.htm

[Alabama]

Just a reference for anyone interested , but Dixie currently has the 1851 with Silver Plated Backstrap and triggerguard in the right caliber .36 in thier New Product section, page # 5 on-line , $225.00 , good deal there and is nice to see someone offering an orginal like copy of that gun . They call it the Civilian model , unlike Cabelas Civilian model that is the wrong caliber .44 .......

Alabama

[Flint]

Ringo is right.

One of the problems with describing things is keeping straight what was original and what the repro makers make.  Uberti makes steel gripframes for 1861s because most of the 61s they make are cut for a shoulder stock.  The Civilian model has a brass gripframe.  Pietta as well, I recall.

Most original Colt 61s were NOT cut for the shoulder stock, so had brass gripframes in that case.  Most Italian 61s ARE cut for the shoulder stock and have steel gripframes.  There even Uberti ignores the original form, at least in the proportion of production and Pietta more so with their 44 "Navies".

A few Shoulder stock models are OK, but the side screws make them uncomfortable to shoot for many people.  The 51 and the Civilian 60s and 61s are more comfortable in that case.  The 60 was probably cut for the stock in most military issue, but the 61 was usually seen without it.

Clouding the waters is the fact that Uberti and Pietta have made significantly more cap & ball revolvers than Colt and Remington ever produced, by quite some margin.

[Riot Earp]

Since this thread was originally about the Leech & Rigdon ...

Midway has them on sale for a nice price:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=716287&t=11082005

They call it an "1851 Navy Leech-Rigdon". 
 

[Alabama]

As long as they don't call me late for dinner they can call that gun anything they want to Riot Earp . 
Now see what your doing to me with this special sale price at Midway 
Darn you !!!!!!
I am saving up for another LeMat and now you go and offer me this tid-bit of information on another gun I want too , darn you darn you .... Now I need the money for two guns at once , your killing me Riot Earp . 

Alabama

[Riot Earp]

I want this one: 

http://www.damonmills.com/images/PS%2018/rigdon_ansley.htm

[Alabama]

Riot Earp , it appears to be sold , did you get it ?

Nice revolver , very rare indeed . Id'e have to keep that one under my pillow and tuck it in at night too , and probably sing it a
Lu-llu-bye too 

Alabama