44 WCF Accuracy?

[Coal Creek Griff]

I know this issue has been discussed elsewhere to some extent, but my questions still remain unanswered.  I also wasn't sure if this was the best section of the forum to bring it up, there not being a reloading-specific section (aimed at smokeless powder).

I have a '73 short rifle in 44 WCF (.44-40) and I'm struggling with getting good accuracy.  I started out with .427 bullets and shot groups of about 10" at 50 yards from a rest.  I slugged the barrel and learned that it was .430.  I have tried .429 bullets and the groups reduced to about 8" at 50 yards.  The cartridges took a little more force to chamber (I'm using Starline brass).  It wasn't a great deal of force, but they didn't freely drop into the chamber like the .427 bullets did.  I then loaded some .431 bullets and the groups reduced to about 5" at 50 yards, but it took definite force to chamber the cartridges.  It wasn't so tight that I was concerned about getting it stuck, but cycling the action was no longer very smooth.  It takes distinct force to chamber the rounds.  The empty brass extracts easily with all loads.

My questions are these:  what kind of accuracy should I expect?  I have always managed to get better accuracy from my guns.  I know that it is good enough for "the game", but I must say that I'm a tad disappointed.  I'm not into this project just to play the game.

What risks do I run with the larger bullets?  I know from slugging the barrel that they are not too oversized for the bore, but they are tight in the chamber.

As a matter of opinion, should I compromise with .429 bullets, which cycle pretty freely, but don't have the accuracy of the .431 bullets?  Should I consider .430 bullets (the local stores didn't have any)?

Are there other options I haven't considered?

Thanks.

CC Griff

[Trailrider]

Howdy, Pard,
This problem can be frustrating, but doesn't apply only to the .44-40, but can also happen with the .45 LC or other BP cartridges.

You may indeed need to use .430" bullets or even .431", but as you have found out, this causes problems chambering.  You may need to change brands of brass, going to Winchester brass, which has the thinnest walls of modern cases in .44-40.

You didn't mention which bullets you are using, nor the powder (smokeless?).  It may be you need to try a different commercial bullet, or change alloys if you are casting your own. You may need to go to a harder or softer alloy.  With smokeless powder, harder bullets generally work better, but not always.

Also, how are you crimping the case mouths?  I find a roll crimp that is visible, but not so great as to cause the case to bulge just back of the beginning of the curve at the crimp.  What dies and what expander plug are you using?  You may need to install a .44 Magnum expander plug for the larger bullets.  This is easy to do with RCBS dies, but possibly not so with other brands.  (I am talking about regular RCBS .44-40 dies.)

I know this isn't giving you a pat solution, but may give you some things to try.  Let us know what happens, and we may be able to narrow it down some more.

[Coal Creek Griff]

Thank you for the suggestions.  I am indeed using smokeless powder.  I've tried a couple of different loads, but the results were pretty consistent.  I have used W231 and Red Dot, because I had them on hand. 

The .427 bullets and the .431 bullets were both Oregon Trail.  The .429s were Silver State.  All of the bullets have a crimp groove and I'm crimping the case into the groove, but trying to avoid a crimp that increases the diameter of the case.

My dies are standard Lee dies.  I am able to get the .431 bullets to seat into the cases by increasing the bell slightly.  The final rounds look kind of funny because the bullet expands the case as it is seated.  The result is that the case tapers at the bottleneck, then expands again where the bullet sits in the case.  I have only loaded a few .431 bullets for testing, but I'll probably see if I can skip the sizing step ( a couple test cartridges with no powder still chambered about as well as the sized ones).

Thanks again!

Griff

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

A lot of Uberti rifles have tight chambers. .430 is a little bit large for a Uberti barrel, they specify .429. My Henry has a groove diameter of .428. My '73 has a groove diameter of .427 and will chamber bullets of .427 and .428 diameter just fine. But it starts to balk a little bit at .429 bullets. Luckily, since the bore is quite tight,  both .427 and .428 bullets shoot fine and I don't need a bigger bullet. You have the unfortunate situation of a large groove diameter and a tight chamber, which is causing your problems.

I would agree with Trailrider, Winchester brass is the thinnest at the mouth, only about .007 thick. This can be about to .001 thinner than the brass from other brands, and can make a significant difference in a case like yours, where a 'fat' bullet is expanding the brass enough to interfere with chambering. You might want to try a batch of Winchester brass and see if it makes a difference for you. I would not cut out the resizing step, it will not prevent your 'fat' bullets from expanding the OD at the case neck. The diameter of your bullets will determine that. But thinner brass will make them bulge slightly less. You also might consider using the Lee Factory Crimp die. Although I usually recommend that a standard seating/crimp die is fine for 44-40, the Lee FCD does not make a conventional roll crimp. It kind of smooshes the brass in to conform to the shape of the crimp groove. As a matter of fact, a bullet with a deeper crimp groove may help too. You also might try a Black Powder bullet made of a softer alloy. The softer lead may bump up in the bore, filling the grooves better, but allowing you to get away with a bullet only .429 in diameter.

Ultimately, the real solution is to have your chamber reamed open a little bit at the neck, but that is a job for a gunsmith.

[Trailrider]

Howdy, again, Pard!

Don't worry about the "wasp waist" in the case behind the base of the bullet.  It actually helps (in addition to the crimp) to keep the bullet from backing into the case.  And it will NOT affect case life.  I'm still using Winchester brass from 20 years and 20+ reloads, and they are mostly still going strong.  (The ones I lose on occasion are those that get "pitcher-mouthed" from my Rossi M92 catching the case mouth on ejection.  Most of those can be save using a specially-shaped pliars to bend them back into shape before resizing.)

You might want to try going to a slower-burning powder, such as Hodgdon's Universal or Alliant's Unique.  I presume you are using bullets in the 200-215 gr. weight range.  Driftwood's suggestion about using a soft bullet, may also help.  You just have to experiment.

Ride easy, Pard,

[Coal Creek Griff]

Thanks for the advice, gents.  While a little frustrating, this project is at least interesting.  In 20 years of reloading, it has all gone very smoothly and I've never had trouble getting good results.  I like reloading and I find experimenting kind of fun (as long as I get good results in the end).

I do still wonder about increased wear on the toggle links if the rounds are stiff to chamber...

CC Griff

[Trailrider]

Thanks for the advice, gents.  While a little frustrating, this project is at least interesting.  In 20 years of reloading, it has all gone very smoothly and I've never had trouble getting good results.  I like reloading and I find experimenting kind of fun (as long as I get good results in the end).

I do still wonder about increased wear on the toggle links if the rounds are stiff to chamber...

CC Griff

Howdy, again, Pard,
I can't discount the possibility of wear and tear on the toggle links if forced hard enough.  I've seen quite a few ORIGINAL '73 Winchesters with cracked or broken knuckle joints. Not sure if this was caused by forcing BP rounds into a fouled action or from oversized ammo, or what...?
Modern-made links should be a bit stronger, however. 

I'd try Winchester brass and .430" bullets and see if that helps any.

Another thought... have you examined the crown on your rifle muzzle?  Sometimes a burr or chip not removed during manufacturing, or as a result of inadvertant contact with something can cause the crown to be unsymmetrical.  That will cause fliers galore!

Good luck with your project!

[Coal Creek Griff]

I wanted to report back about how my efforts are going.  I appreciated the advice I received here and I think I can live with the results I have achieved.

I started casting my own bullets, which I size to .429.  I am using an alloy that is a bit softer than the commercial bullets I was using and I suspect these engage the rifling a little better.  When I load them in Winchester cases and roll the crimp into the crimp-groove, being careful to not create a bulge, the cartridges fit easily into the chamber.

I haven't had a chance to do proper accuracy testing yet, but just shooting off hand, the groups seem to have reduced noticeably.  I have also "lowered my sights" (figuratively speaking) and I don't expect super MOA accuracy from this rifle.  That helps too.

Thanks again for the great advice; as you can see, I used most of it to come to this solution.

CC Griff

[French Jack]

Another possibility since you are casting your own bullets, is to get a mold from Rapine for the hollow base .44 which is primarily used in the .44 colt.  It casts a nominal 210+/- bullet and is very useful in both rifles and pistols with bores larger than the .427.