MK-III Range Test ... 600yds

[john boy]

I'm at a loss to explain what may be happening.

Dick, and this was using only 2grs of Unique.  With a smokeless pressure curve not having the high spike that black has ... I'm wondering what the shafts will measure being shot with a full of load of black

Best way to find out would be shoot the bullets into a snow bank but we don't get snow here in south Jersey.  But Ranch and TK get plenty of snow, plus your neck of the woods too

[Ranch 13]

Bottom Line:  Have to have more different rifles and shooters shooting the bullet long range with honest group pictures of the results.

I asked specifically in a post that was deleted by cuts as it was to negative.   IS THERE ANY PLACE WHERE I COULD GET 150 OF THESE BULLETS. I BELIEVE I'LL HAVE TIME TO WORK UP A LOAD BEFORE THE SAGEBRUSH MATCH, AND IF I CAN MAKE THEM WORK HERE AT THE HOUSE I'LD SURE TAKE THEM THERE AND RUN EM ON ONE OF THE TOUGHEST RANGES IN THE COUNTRY.

[john boy]

Are you using a compression plug? Just curious.

TK ... Yes

[TAkaho kid]

John Boy,

When you get casting again send a box O' Bullets North.

T.K.

[john boy]

Ok Boyz's (TK and Ranch), the Box O' 1:20 bullets went out to each of you today by Priority Mail.  Let me know, if you would, that you received them.  And I do want to thank Ya All for stepping to the testing plate, even though it is not my mold.

I cast another 50 for myself and will load them seated in the chamber EXACTLY at the leade (Pedersoli chamber ... COAL 2.869) ... WITH NO THUMB PRESSURE.  The test box bullet showed the best engravings seated this way.  The powder charges will be (1) duplex load I shot previously - (2) 70gr Swiss and (3) 70gr Goex CTG

As for others in the dugout - come on!  Shoot some and post them pictures before the geese fly South or Winter sets in.  Okie Dookie?  Thanks!

[Ranch 13]

 thanks so kindly John. I'll be watching the mailbox like a hawk
Looking forwards to seeing what the things can do. Even have scrounged a new idea for an 800 yd gong. and will get the 1000 put back in place.

[TAkaho kid]

Thanks John Boy,

Looking forward to seeing if we can get DD's babies to fly straight. I will also be shooting my 550PP's, 500 Saeco Govt., and the classic 405 Govt. RN.

probably will have to shoot local (The LandRover has me investing heavily in the oil companies...sort of an arse backwards way to add to the retirement fund ) which means 100-300 yrds max. depending upon were they park the excavator. I ve got the 100 ft. tape set out (can't forget that). Just out of curriosity I will fluff-up the sand in the impact area. May be able to recover a few slightly molested bullets.

All will be shot using straight BP. Exact load data to follow.

Now to clear the shop and get loading!

Best regards,

T.K.

[Cuts Crooked]

Thanks John Boy,

Looking forward to seeing if we can get DD's babies to fly straight. I will also be shooting my 550PP's, 500 Saeco Govt., and the classic 405 Govt. RN.

Now that should be interesting! I read somewheres about PP bullets making a major win in LR shooting just recently. I'm getting more & more interested in them.

[john boy]

Range Results - 7Aug08
Pedersoli Quigley
R-P Cases
CCI Br2 Primers
All had 0.060 fiber wads
Seated in the chamber EXACTLY at the leade (Pedersoli chamber ... COAL 2.869) ... no crimp
Powder Charges:
3.5gr Unique and 66.5gr Swiss 1.5 (Pink Dots)
63gr Swiss 1.5 (Yellow Dots)
65gr Goex CTG (Green Dots)

Pink Dots ... Duplex ... SHOTGUN Target (3 sighters - 12 rounds All Over The Frame)


Yellow Dots ... 63gr Swiss (12 shots to get a vernier setting  ... (3 on target - see 2 POI at 1:00 and 1 at 8 ring)


Green Dots ... 65gr Goex CTG (3 sighters - 12 on target)


As you see the Goex CTG recipe shot the (best?) and I'm wondering what the results would have been if less sighters were needed for the 63gr Swiss 1.5 recipe.

Shooting conditions were perfect:
Temp - 88 Degrees
Sky - Clear and Sunny
RH - 42%
Winds - West at 8mph
Mirage - Running Left to Right straight (no bubbles)
Notes of Interest:  No lube star at muzzle with any of the recipes and heavy fouling in bore near chamber.  I shot the majority dry patching after each shot or 3x blow tubing and then a damp patch
And if your wondering why there are no sighters on the targets - I used another target frame for sighting.  Also, I had no spotter and running back and forth to the frames is a real PITA!

Conclusion ... The Jury is Still Out!

[Dick Dastardly]

JB, yer a soldier.

That's a lot of running.  If you straighten it out, you went miles, and miles to travel before I rest. . . .  I'm reminded of a great eastern author.

Yes, that bullet will fly.  No, it won't easily enter the center ring.  But, it has potential.

I'm a bit disturbed by the fact that you had fouling questions.

[Dick Dastardly]

Whups, I fergot ta sign off.

Sorry bout that.

DD-DLoS

[Ace Lungger]

 :)Hi guys,
i bought me a Sharps, I allways wanted one for 30 years, it just never worked out! So I am doing a lot of reading!My question on what I have read, why is the guy that is doing the testing using Unique with the swiss BP?

Just trying to figure this stuff out before I go play! I like the looks of the BL bullet you are testing, because when I shot a lot years ago (smokeless) longer pointed bullets shoot flatter!
Dick is this a single gang mould or multi gange bullet! I wished i could find a good book on BP shooting, because at this time I am still lost, (paper wrapping)?
Anything to state, i will log and begin on myy long juroney!
Thats
ACE

[john boy]

why is the guy that is doing the testing using Unique with the swiss BP?

Ace ... The guy - me ... loaded what is called a 'duplex load'  And the reason for using Unique is the RQ (Relative Quickness burn rate) of the powder.  And why does one have to be concerned with the RQ using smokeless powder in a duplex load with original powder?  It's called keeping the PSI's down to stay within the 18,000psi of the rifle shooting the duplex load.

A word of caution - if you are not knowledgeable about duplex loads - DON'T SHOOT THEM!

[Ranch 13]

 Ace with the sedate velocity and arching trajectory of the black powder cartridges, the sleek bullets common to highpower centerfire smokeless shooters offer preciuos little advantage of the more traditional bpcr bullet styles.

[Ace Lungger]

As you guys know, i have just stepped into the Dark Side and I won't be doing any mixing!! But I am in the learning mode, I own 5 BP guns andhave not shot one yet
i am still doing my best to figure it out, most people say that I am over thinking it, and I most likely am (to many years of smokeless loading)!! I do like the design of the bullet you have been testing, isn't that a D.D. bullet! What weight is that bullet?
As I have been reading this post, I have learned a lot, but not as much as I would like! DD mentioned he didn't do anything but push his bullet in, instead of seating with a die! I can see his therory behind that, (I think he wants his bullet to be touching his rifleing lands when the breech is closed?) If that is the case, why couldn't you make a semi mock up of a go or no go gauge that would be made out of a wooden dowel turned to the same size of the bullet where it meets the lands, but then tapper down a litlle to slide in the case but be tighten enough to stay when opening the breech then you could mark it mic it and build your load with however much power and fiber wads to get compression and the perfect setting?

Remember I am a newbie, and just asking these dumb question to help my self understand the game> When I was long range shooting with smokeless powder, I shot Ruger #1 basic sharps design, because of the acurace of his design1

I am just asking dumb questions!!!

I hope I have not stepped into something I wasn't suppose to be involved in, if so I appoligize!!

ACE

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Ace,

I made up a 'dummy' cartridge that was sized just enough that the bullet would move with some resistance.  Then I smoked the bullet with a nice even layer of soot.  I used a candle for this.  I don't use a candle to smoke my mold cavities cuz it leaves too much oily residue.  Anyway, I took the cartridge and carefully inserted it in the chamber of my 45-70 rolling block.  Then, I just as carefully, extracted it.  The soot was showing that it had just touched the rifling leade with the top driving band.  This was my OAL for the cartridge and that bullet.

I decap my fired brass with a hammer and punch and a steel V block.  I put the brass over an appropriate hole and tap the primer out with the hammer and punch.  Then, I resize the brass only enough to give very slight resistance to a lube/sized bullet.  I re-prime and bell the brass only enough that I won't damage the bullet when I insert it.  After I've dropped in my powder charge using my home made drop tube (I've been known to use duplex loads) I put a 1/16" Circle Fly over powder fiber wad in and then I compress it with either my 1/2 ton arbor press or a compression die.  I compress the powder with the wad till the lube/sized bullet can be hand seated and the resulting OAL of the loaded cartridge is equal to that of the sooted proof bullet.

At the firing line I load the gun by carefully inserting the loaded cartridge using slight thumb pressure and then close the breach.  Should I have to unload the gun without firing it, the charged case with the powder and wad will usually extract leaving the bullet just engraving the rifling.  I use a special white nylon rod to carefully push the bullet out of the rifling.  This bullet is still usable.

One thing I've learned about my gun is to make a witness mark on the base of the brass.  I  use a fine center punch and a lite hammer tap to make the mark near the outside of the rim.   I line this witness mark up with an index mark on my breach.  This way, when I fire the brass again, it will always line up the same way.  For some reason my gun likes to have this step taken rather than random placement of the cartridge in the chamber.  It's just another variable eliminated from the equation that leads to accuracy in long range shooting.

Just a safety note on duplex loads.  If you have some good data, and there is data to be had, duplex loads can improve performance in Long Range Black Powder shooting.  It's not the panacea for all guns and situations.  I'd not even try it until I had experience with 100% bp loads.  Please know that SASS forbids duplex loads, so don't bring them to a SASS match.  There's a good reason for this rule.  Too many guns have been blown up by shooters trying to work up 'duplex' loads.  It's not an unsafe practice, but it can be dangerous.  I'd say "don't go there" till you are very comfortable with 100% bp loads, and then only with the tutelage of a very knowledgeable reloader and some good published data.

A word about lube/sizing bullets, especially true for the long range stuff.  Slug your bore or have a competent gunsmith do it.  Read the largest diameter of your slugged bullet.  That's the part that went down to the bottom of the groves.  This, plus One or Two Thousandths of an inch is the proper diameter of your lube/sized bullets.  That's the gospel according to St. Lyman.

When casting bullets for long range shooting, pay very close attention to the bullet bases.  That's way more important than the nose.  The base has to be absolute flat and perpendicular to the center axis of rotation of the bullet.  If it isn't, you will not get the kind of accuracy you need.  A proper cast bullet, if dropped on a hard surface, may as well go back in the pot.  This is especially true if the base of the bullet is dented/flattened/deformed.  I  drop my bullets from the mold onto a soft cotton terry towel.  Then, I carefully roll them into a box with soft cotton at the bottom.  I move my cooled bullets to trays that hold 50 bullets in separate 'dimples' and keep them there.  After lube/sizing these bullets, they go back into those trays till they are loaded, usually the same day.

Where do I get those convenient trays, you ask?  From my friendly sawbones, why of course.  He gets blood sample vials shipped to him in those trays.  Once emptied, they have to be disposed of.  Since my Dr. is into recycling, I help him out.  These days he saves those trays for me.  I pick them up every now and then and if I forget, the nurse calls me.  These are the same trays I use to ship my 'sampler' bullet sets to customers that buy them.

Hope some of this is usable Ace.

DD-DLoS   

[Ace Lungger]

Dick,
Thank you Sir for getting back with me and explaining what you did! And I will agree with you on your methods from what I have read so far! I don't plan on doing any duplex loads for a long time if ever!!
One question I forgot to ask was the antifrezze wipe? It has to have something to do with making the barrel slicker? And as I was stating earlier, I have a lot to learn about this type of shooting! Because when I was shooting smokeless years ago, once I had burned in a barrel I would never run a brush threw it again!! I only used solvents and then dry patches to clean the barrel, I only used the yellow coated dyamite wire from construction sites as my cleaning tools, never letting anything touch the rifling lands!
But with black powder you got to scrub, so there I have to have a new learning process!

Thanks for all the help!!
ACE

[Dick Dastardly]

To clean my black powder guns, I never have to scrub.  Big Lube™ bullets carry so much lube that the barrel stays wet with lube.  I clean mine with a spritz of Moosemilk (1 part Ballistol and 10 parts water in a spray bottle) down the bore and a tug of the boresnake.  Presto, pronto barrel is sparkling clean.  The moosemilk leaves just enough lube behind to prevent rusting.

There's no longer any need to scrub the barrels of black powder guns.  Simply shoot Big Lube™ bullets and clean up with Moosemilk and boresnake.

DD-DLoS

P.S.  Never used antifreeze on my guns.  The stuff is mostly ethylene glycol and that's a petroleum based fluid.  I don't use many petroleum products around black powder guns.

[Ace Lungger]

Dick, you made me feel better there! One down, 1000 to go And I saw the post he made about it and it just kinda smoke my brain for a minute!
I been to your website, but it was a will back I need to go look again, I am only looking for a Single Cavity mould!
Thanks
ACE

[john boy]

One down, 1000 to go ...

Ace, this thread deals strictly with the testing of the new MK-III bullet.  I would sincerely appreciate that you and others keep it that way.  Otherwise, it will become polluted with non testing posts.  And downstream, folks will have to plough through extraneous posts unrelated to the test to find information about the bullet and how it shoots

Should you have questions about BPCR, unrelated to the test of the new bullet. ... please start your own thread(s) somewhere else on the Darksider's Den

Your co-operation is greatly appreciated