MK-III Range Test ... 600yds

[Dick Dastardly]

That forward driving band ahead of the top lube grove is a very important part of the design.  One of the reasons I don't resize my brass is that there is a possibility of damaging that band.  The total bearing surface of this bullet is more than most, but precise alignment is very essential.  My bullets are seated with my thumb.  If I have to unload my gun with an unfired round in it, I have to use a rod to push the bullet back out.  That front driving band will have started engraving the rifling and the brass will extract and leave the bullet in the bore.

For hunting I'd crimp just enough to hold the bullet, but for long range shooting I prefer to leave the bullet pretty loose in the brass.  You should find that all three bands mike the same.

FWIW, I find that my shooting with this bullet prefers a 1:25 tin to lead alloy.

DD-DLoS

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy John Boy,

What did those bands measure?  Also, I'm reading .370 at the bottom of my driving bands on unfired bullets as cast.  What did your test box pair measure?

Thanks,

DD-DLoS

[Ranch 13]

 I'm wondering if using a hard alloy like #2 would help that bullet?

[Cuts Crooked]

Cuts Crooked, just so there's no misunderstandings here.

1. I wish DD all the success in the world with his bullets. But with the 45 bp cartridges having been as thouroughly vetted over the last century or so as they have, DD's design would of cropped up long ago and far away.

2 I do aaaloottt of long range shooting and from what I've seen of that bullet so far, its not going to get it done past offhand ranges, at least not with a 45-70. If as DD has reported that he's having to smack it hard with duplex loads to get it to group, then its likely not ever going to catch on in BPCR circles. None of the groups I've seen posted to date at 600 yds will keep up with a great many of the previuosly available styles, and from the results at 600, an 800 yd buffalo gong or a 1000 yd target would just be an excercise in burning powder.

3. From the looks of those bullets they are collapsing back into themselves entirely to much to maintain any stability at long range.I am able to shoot well past 1000 yds here at my house, I recover alot of bullets I shoot from variuos molds and makers, none of them show that sort of shrinkage even when they slam into clay banks at 2-300 yds.Also most of the styles I shoot have no problem with lube starvation.

4 John is entirely right if there's any hopes of that bullet making a splash in bpcr world then Dastardly is going to have to get a bunch of them out into folks hands for some testing.Real testing at distance such as JB has attempted. Remember the upclose results were good, but when distances started stretching and the wind picked up........ As good as Leeths molds are, not many folks are going to spring for a bullet that won't make any better groups than whats been available for public consumption to this point.
If DD isn't going to make bullets available to folks to test at long range, then he needs to come forward with his own test results and some scores from various shoots across the country,would do alot to help convince folks.

Ok, You are "Joe Xpert " We will all bow to your superior knowledge. But first... this type of bullet HAS cropped up b'fore under the Winchester brand right at the end of the "BP Era", Ask John Boy more about that. And given that this bullet is less than 6 months old, I hope you will forgive us if we don't give up on it quite so quickly. (one would think that it is imperative that perfection happen with the first shot ) Try setting back aqnd waiting a while b'fore you make your pronouncements on the viability of this bullet. It will make you sound less like one of our previous naysayers. He didn't like Big Lube bullets either...just on general priniciple I guess. Give it time. It may turn out to be a fabulous bullet, or not, but negativity at this point is uncalled for. (in fact negativity is never called for. if it isn't good, it will fade on it's own without that stuff )

[Dick Dastardly]

I'm in a bit of a box here.  I've got things ready to shoot, but the farmer just started cutting canary grass hay south of the ranch.  The water finally dried up enough for me to set targets and shoot, but it's not my land.  So, I am working with the North Bristol Sportsmans club to get their new rifle range up and running.  Meeting with the zoning people Monday night.  NBSC is Ten minutes from my place.

Otherwise, the nearest range is an hours drive each way.  Winnequah is closer and has the 1000 yard distance, but I'm not a member there.  I'll shoot some matches there, but it's not available to me for test shooting.

You will see some current results as soon as I find a place to pull the trigger.  Please be patient.

For those more critical but without bullets to test, bullet samplers and the molds are available on my web site.  No, they are not free. 

DD-DLoS

[Cuts Crooked]

250 yds from a box stock Pedersoli with factory sights, my lousy eyesite, and poor shooting skills.

[Dick Dastardly]

Good group.  No sign of bullets hitting sideways.  No real fliers.  I wouldn't worry too much about my eyes with those results.

Zoning meeting tonight.  Fingers crossed.  New range open soon, I hope.

DD-DLoS

[john boy]

Cuts, that was the group picture that you posted back in May.  What recipe was it, including  alloy and COAL?

Dick, about the details of the test box bullets - answers will have to wait.  Am at daughter's house waiting for the new arrival.




The big picture about the test box bullets is:
The ones that were shot with the bullet seated in the case at the bottom of the driving band (jumpers) - ain't gonna fly.  Look at the distortion of the bullet: Picture 1 - left bullet ... Picture 2 - right bullet
Close inspection showed the land marks had gouged lines in the lead and were not symetrically straight (base to nose).  Check the varied height of the leading bore engraving.  From the appearance of the 460 (1:20) bullet ... it was wobbling up the bore being pushed by only 2.0grs of Unique.  And though I can't measure it - the shaft of the bullet was bent - you can see this on the right bullet - Picture 2  Look at the smeared lead in the land cut at the bullet base, Picture 1 left bullet

Conversely, the bullet shot with the driving band seated in the chamber EXACTLY at the leade (Pedersoli chamber ... COAL 2.869) ... WITH NO THUMB PRESSURE looked like a normal bullet shot through a bore.  Look at the grease groove bands which are not distorted either.  Picture #2 shows this clearly, plus all the leade mark egravings are perfectly symetrical around the nose of the bullet.  The 'jumper' bullet has leade engravings - some high, others lower as if when the bullet went into the bore - it was canted

This could be a valid reason why I had so many flyers.  When I shot the first batch, the rounds were seated using a cartridge seater.  The 2nd batch were all jumpers

PS:  I thought you 'detectives' would have figured out these differences by now - but  .   OK then, back to Ballistics 101! 

[Ranch 13]

Sorry John , can't help you anymore here, seems as tho any thing I have to say about it, is apparently bashing it, and must be deleted immediately.

[TAkaho kid]

John Boy,

I don't know what to suggest on this one either
Anyway,

I agree, try a harder alloy. However this may cause some issues too.

Unfortunatly, Cut's without any detailed load data that target - though a somewhat decent group -  its of little use here.

If Johnboy had that data he might beable to verify your results and have a firm platform to jump off from as he works these things out to the 1000 yrd mark. There is a world of diffrence between how a bullet performs at 25 v 600 yrds.

Best regards,

T.K.

Note:

THIS POST WAS EDITED BY CUTS CROOKED WITHOUT THE POSTERS CONSENT

[Cuts Crooked]

JohnBoy,

Yes that's the target from back in May. I can't tell you the alloy because those were some samples I got from DD b'fore I decided to buy the mold. COAL I didn't record, but I know the loads were 67 gr of KIK 3F, in Remington cases that were not resized, and crimped lightly over the front driving band, lit off with Federal large pistol primers.

I'm puzzled by you results when seated deeper. Is your chamber overly generous? My Roller has a very tight chamber, albiet with a rather long throat.

Things at work have kept me away from the range this year  but I hope to get some time in this fall with this bullet. I think it's going to do fine if one finds the right combination of gun & load. I've recently developed floaters that look like dust bunnies and I'm not the worlds best shot anyway, but this bullet appears to shoot better than I can.  Fortunately I have a pard who is an EXCEPTIONAL shooter who can be persuaded to help me wring this one out.

[Ranch 13]

Well it looks to me like the biggest problem with this bullet , is it will shoot great to 300ish yds, but when the ranges start stretching  is when things start falling apart. I've got 3 different bullets(1 for the 4065, and 2 for the 45-70) that same thing happens to.
There was a report of 8 in group at 800 yds, but the poster that reported that never came forward with load details other than it was duplexed, and to date has FAILED to produce a verifiable target.

[john boy]

Is your chamber overly generous?

Cuts, the Pedersoli Quigley chamber is at factory spec's - did a CerroSafe casting and verified by Dick Trenk, Pedersoli US Events Co-ordinator
As for the actual spec's - not until I get home ...
Teagan Reiley Burke, came into the World last night at 6:10P ... 7# 10oz and she is BEAUTIFUL!

I'm puzzled by you results when seated deeper.

The test box bullet says, when seated deep - it gets bumped by the ignition and the bullet twists in the barrel ... evidenced by the uneven leade bore cut marks.  They are not equal heights ... but when seated EXACTLY to the leade, the leading bore cuts are all equal heights.

So when it exits the bore, the bullet is yawing substantially and believe this accounts for the number of flyers that I had at 600yds

Bottom Line:  Have to have more different rifles and shooters shooting the bullet long range with honest group pictures of the results.

[Cuts Crooked]

Cuts, the Pedersoli Quigley chamber is at factory spec's - did a CerroSafe casting and verified by Dick Trenk, Pedersoli US Events Co-ordinator

Ok, that "puts paid" to what I was thinking! I wondered if the cartridges were "laying" in a loose chamber and not hitting the rifling straight. If the chamber is tight that's not what is happening. I never had this problem with my Ped Roller, with any of the BL designs. Also, I've never recovere any boolits that looked that nice. (Ou Berms are gravel and clay, anything I've recovered has been pretty well mangled)

I should be able to get to the range next month, assuming we don't lose any more staff at werk.

[Dick Dastardly]

Thanks John Boy,

Those different size bands on the fired bullets had me scratching my noggin.  Now I can better understand what was happening.  You're right.  Those with different size bands couldn't do anything but yaw all over the place.  I'm surprised you got on paper.

Just cuz I didn't know any better, I set up my loads so that the first band was touching and just starting to engrave the rifling.

This bullet has a very quiet transition from supersonic to subsonic.  There's nothing there to cause instability as range increases.

I'm also working at getting some tests shot.  That 800 yard test encountered record rainfalls and the big freezer carton simply melted.  By the time the 'lake' went down, there was nothing left to photograph.  FWIW, I can no longer shoot south of my place.  There's new building happening out there.

DD-DLoS

[john boy]

What did those bands measure?  Also, I'm reading .370 at the bottom of my driving bands on unfired bullets as cast.  What did your test box pair measure?

Dick, I lost when you say 370 at the bottom of the driving bands. Mine:
As cast - 458
449 Test box (uneven leading bore engraving) ... land to land
447 Test box (uneven leading bore engraving) ... groove to groove
449 Test box (even leading bore engraving) ... land to land
447 Test box (even leading bore engraving) ... groove to groove

My CerroCast chamber cast is:
0.450 – Bore diameter
0.458 – Groove diameter

Factory Spec's:
Bore dia, .4500"
Groove dia  .4580"

Is your chamber overly generous?

Cuts - here's the dimensions:
Length of throat  .236 - same as factory spec.  Your roller should have the same dimension.  Pedersoli does not do different lengths for their rollers and Sharps - same barrels in 45-70
0.462 – Diameter of chamber 45 degree angle

[Dick Dastardly]

No, no Cuts,

I was indicating the measurement at the bottom of the lube grove.  We made the pillar, as determined by the minimum diameter of the bullet, .370.  That diameter with a CUP of 20,000 psi ought not to distort.  The trick is, how small can I make the supporting column and maintain linear integrity?  We were too close to that in the Mk-I and Mk-II designs.  So, for the Mk-III design we increased the column by a wide safety margin.  This bullet also performs very well with heathen fad smokeyless powders for that reason.

So, I was asking what the increase was in the BOTTOM of the lube groves.  That's the question that is not answered.

Thanks,

DD-DLoS

[john boy]

OK Dick, let's try it again ... the diameter of the shaft between the grease grooves?

370 ... As cast at bottom of driving band
368 ... As cast at the bottom of the 2nd GG band

Both Test Bullets
367 ... at bottom of driving band
366 ... at the bottom of the 2nd GG band

[TAkaho kid]

John Boy,

Are you using a compression plug? Just curious.

[Dick Dastardly]

Thanks JB,

I'm at a loss at how those lube grove bases could shrink after firing.  I'd have expected them to expand if they were failing.  The LOSS of several Thousandths of an inch is not indicated by collapse or compression.  In other words, If I squeezed the bullet I'd expect the most fragile part to swell.  You've described exactly the opposite phenomenon.  I'm at a loss to explain what may be happening.

Thanks for the measurements.

DD-DLoS