Original BP loads for .45LC

[Henry4440]

I read this about original loads for the .45LC:

'....the original load intended for the Single Action Army, a 250 grain (16 g) cast lead bullet over 40 grains (2.6 g) of FFg black powder,because that load pushed the chamber pressure limit of the original 1873 revolvers the government cut the powder charge down to 36 grains (2.3 g) of FFg black powder.'

and

'......the original loading of a 255-grain bullet over 40 grains of black powder was an awesome load and proved to be too powerful for most users. It was soon cut back to 30 grains for military use and 35 grains for civilian use.Most current factory loads for Cowboy Action Shooting duplicate the 30-grain load.'

My questions are:
1. What BP are you using?FFFG or FFG?
2. What is your load?
and
3. Why is the military load less than the civilian load?

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy, Henry!

To answer your questions directly:

#1:  3F  (FFFg), sometimes 2F, but only if 3F isn't available.  (Is there a difference that can be felt?  Some say yes, some say no: me, not much, but maybe a tiny bit.  Sometimes.  Or not.)

#2:  I squeeze in as much as possible which allows my 250 gr. BigLube tm boolits and a .030" card wad to compress the powder about 1/8".  The measured amount usually averages about 35-37 grs., but I put it in by volume, not weight.  By the way; I do the same the few times I use 2F in my loads - or ANY other Black Powder, for that matter.

#3:  PART of the reason the early loads were dropped to 30 grs. was so that the felt recoil (and action at the opposite end of the bullet's flight) would closely mimic the 45 S&W load - sometimes called 45 Schofield.  These bullets (45 S&W) can be used in guns chambered for 45 Colt and between them caused many logistical "challenges" with units that were issued the S&W gun, but got 45 Colt ammo; which WON'T work.  By the way, the differences and confusion caused by these two SIMILAR rounds - used at the same time, is why the 45 Colt is so often referred to as the Long Colt.


You CAN get 40 grs. of BP in a case using a 250 gr. bullet, but it has to be compressed more than is recommended - 'tho many who have tried it have had no trouble.  The reason is because our modern cases have a much thicker base (the "web") and the old cases were what was called "balloon head" and would fit 2-4 grs. more powder.  If you go to a CAS match and see someone shooting all-brass shotgun shells:  they are Balloon Head cases and look very different than if you look down into your typical ammo manufactured in the last hundred years or so.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Part of the reason the original Colt load was dropped down was there was problems with cylinders blowing up. Early Colts up to approx SN 96,000 had frames and cylinders made of a material more closely resembling malleable iron than steel. This would have been up until around 1883. From SN 96,000 to around SN 180,000 (mid 1898) frames and cylinders were made from steel more like modern low/medium carbon steels.

In truth, probably the only 45 Colt cartridge that was really capable of holding 40 grains of powder were the early copper cased Benet primed cases. These predated Boxer primed cases, having an interior capacity large enough to contain 40 grains of powder under a 250 grain lead bullet. Once Boxer primed balloon head cases became available, the interior capacity was probably reduced to around 37-38 grains of powder under a 250 grain bullet. Kuhnhausen says these rounds with 37-38 grains of powder in them were available commercially from the start. He also says the military round was dropped to 30 grains of powder.

Trying to peg modern charges is a bit of a moving target, because not all modern Black Powder weighs the same. My standard 45 Colt load is 2.2CC of FFg under a PRS 250 grain Big Lube bullet. 2.2CC of FFg will compress around 1/16" when the PRS bullet is seated. I keep a chart of the weight of my charges in my reloading notebook. 2.2CC of Goex FFg is around 34.5 grains. 2.2CC of Elephant FFg (no longer available) was around 37.5 grains. My current load, 2.2CC of Schuetzen FFg weighs in at around 33 grains. Of course, these loads are all in modern solid head cases, which have less powder capacity than either the old balloon head cases, or the even older Benet primed cases.

[Adirondack Jack]

Then as now (maybe moreso) there was a tendency of sellers of some things to put a thumb on the scale.  It MIGHT be that the numbers were , "rounded up" for marketing purposes

That would easily explain the difficulty most have replicating early loads, even with balloon head brass.

The buying public wasn't expected to have sensitive scales, and chronographs didn't exist....

[Wills Point Pete]

 I have loaded 40 grains of GOEX into solid head Starline brass and seated a 250 grain bullet. I had to use a home made compression "die" and it was a pain. With the short grip on an SAA clone it was a pain to shoot, too. My normal load in about 35 grains or 30 grains with a grease cookie.
Since men in the 1870-1890 Cavalry tended to be fairly small, if I remember correctly the max weight was 140 pounds or it was the Infantry or Artillery, that was another reason they lightened the loads. With a filler or thick wads there is no reason to load heavy loads for CAS. If a 30 grain charge of BP could stop a Sioux or a Moro or Apache, it is certainly plenty for our steel bad guys.
Once I'm recovered from this rotator cuff surgery and I shoot up what I have stockpiled I will go with maybe 25 grains and the Big Lube 250grain. It will still smoke and dry grits is cheaper than powder.

[Sgt. Jake]

      Wills Point Pete      I might sugest the Cowboy 45 Specials,if youve had surgery ,and or still experencing some pain. If using the Big Lube tm Boolits the case will hold with slight compression some where around 17.0 to 20.0 grs. of black. The loads will be pleasnt to shoot and chrono around 750 to 950,depending on bullet weight.Their are some other benifits to using the case ,like making a lb. of powder last longer,ect. You might give it some thought.      Adios  Sgt. Jake

[Henry4440]

Thanks for the information guys.
Next time i will try Swiss FFG in my Vaquero.45LC.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Another option is the 45 Schofield case. I load Schofields with a 200 grain J/P 45-200 Big Lube bullet and 1.9CC of FFg. 1.9CC of Goex FFg is usually around 27 grains. This is a nice mild load that I use in my 1858 Remmies with their R&D conversion cylinders. My regular bear stomper 45 Colt loads are a bit too much in the Remmies. Incidentally, a 200 grain bullet and 27 grains of powder closely approximates the old 44 Henry Rimfire round.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Lonesome Henry

Rather than use the expensive Swiss powder, I suggest you try some Schuetzen instead. Schuetzen is made by Wano in Germany and uses the same high quality Buckthorne Alder charcoal that Swiss does, yet it costs much less than Swiss. About the same as Goex. I have been using Schuetzen for the past two years and like it much better than Goex. Because of the superior charcoal Schuetzen leaves less fouling behind than Goex.

Graf sells the same powder under their own label.

[Henry4440]

Lonesome Henry

Rather than use the expensive Swiss powder, I suggest you try some Schuetzen instead. Schuetzen is made by Wano in Germany and uses the same high quality Buckthorne Alder charcoal that Swiss does, yet it costs much less than Swiss. About the same as Goex. I have been using Schuetzen for the past two years and like it much better than Goex. Because of the superior charcoal Schuetzen leaves less fouling behind than Goex.

Graf sells the same powder under their own label.

Yip DJ, you're right.
Schuetzen 1kg = $60
Swiss        1kg = $81

But i have a 1 pound of Siss FFG left.
In my 44-40 Henry i shoot Swiss FFFG, but i will change to Schuetzen when all the powder was gone.Gone with the Wind.
Have to save some money for an 1860 Conversion.

[Wills Point Pete]

 Thanks for the suggestion, Sgt. Jake. Recoil does not hurt, it's motion. I think about the short cases but since I shoot a '92 clone in .45 the logistics are simpler with the long case. I can buy more dry grits when these are gone. Think I'll have cheese grits with my breakfast in the morning. Mmmm, grits.

It's funny, after my Doc scheduled the surgery but before he cut my shoulder up I went to a shoot. My full charge loads out of my 12 gauge double did not hurt the shoulder he cut on, but pushing the gun cart hurt.Ah, well, I should be shooting by late September or early October.

[Sgt. Jake]

     Wills Point Pete    As long as youre a shootin,it really dosnt mater what or how much ,you are a SHOOTIN.                     Adios  Sgt. Jake

[w44wcf]

Historically speaking........UMC (Union Metallic Cartridge Co.) offered 3 different b.p. loadings for the 250 gr. bullet......28 grs., 35 grs. and 40 grs.  THese were loaded in boxer primed, solid head, button pocket cases (balloon head style).

Several years ago,  I bought some original UMC headstamped .45 Colt black powder cartridges from a cartridge collector. I dissected several of them and found that, with the exception of 2 cartridges, the others contained 40 grs. of b.p., that when screened appeared to be a mix of FFG and FFFG powder.  The 2 cartridges that were the exception contained 35 grs. of b.p.

I measured the factory compression of the 40 gr. charge of b.p. and it ran between .17" and .20".

Regarding the mix of FFG & FFFG powder, Bill Knight, the black powder guru, has mentioned that was a common practice back in the 1800's. 



w44wcf