"Gamer Load" w/Triple 7 in 38 sp.

[LoneRider]

I know this has been done before but I can't find it. I'm changing to the Darkside but still want to "GO FAST", need a load that's just barely legal as far as how much smoke!

[Pettifogger]

The standard, with a few other embellishments. is the smoke equivalent to 1cc of Goex Cowboy real BP.  Now, IF you think you can make the standard with less than 1cc of 777 or APP, that's up to you to try a few rounds with different loadings and see how much smoke they produce.  1cc of real BP or the subs ain't all that much powder.  (About 17 grains of real BP, a little less weighwise with the subs.)

[Adirondack Jack]

In terms of light recoil and most smoke with 777, a load that JUST touches the base of the bullet is best. Any compression at all increases pressures and recoil, and REDUCES smoke.

[Howdy Doody]

My T.G. is Snakebite and he was a member of the committee that did the research on loadings and what will or will not produce enough smoke to meet the standard set by SASS for competition at State and higher events.
You can shoot a lot less than a full case load of 777 and make the standard. Although the manufacturer suggests no air space, 777 can in fact shoot CAS distances with a air space similar to smokeless powder. It is position sensitive and using mag primers helps, but the fact is, at small loads, the stuff is not very accurate, as in try to group some at 15 yards and you will see.
Then there are fillers. Breakfast foods are popular. There is foam caulking rod backer and who knows what else.
I know the current world FC champion and he goes fast, but he does it in style, as in he does not download, but does shoot .38s. When you can pile shot after shot onto close grouped targets and hit them at speed, with clouds of smoke from true BP, then you earn a lot of respect from other competitors and you know you did it the right way. Blackpowder should look like blackpowder is what I am trying to say. Wimpy wisps of near white smoke don't look like the right class and I must not be the only one thinking that, since they did come up with a standard.
The reason I am not giving you the load is because the minimum load of 777 one day will qualify and the next day the very same load won't. That would be due to weather and atmospheric conditions. When you say barely meets I think that in itself could cause you some issues if challenged on the smoke standard. Testing is done same day, same range, not by pulling bullets and checking powders or quantity.

[hellgate]

I shoot between 11 and 12 grains (it's either 11.2 or 11.7grs) of FFF 777 in my 38s under a 158gr RN in my 357 Rossis. That's enough powder to touch the base of the bullet and smokes a little less that the 15grs I use in the 357 mag. It is an accurate load. Note I am using FFF which is not recommended. I do not know if FF 777 will meter the same. I had the load developed and shot a bunch before I found out you are not supposed to use FFFg in cartridges. It is an equivalent volume of over 15grs BP. I only shoot that load when I am at a "lost brass" match.

[Abilene]

I know this has been done before but I can't find it. I'm changing to the Darkside but still want to "GO FAST", need a load that's just barely legal as far as how much smoke!

Howdy Doody says "...I know the current world FC champion and he goes fast, but he does it in style, as in he does not download, but does shoot .38s. When you can pile shot after shot onto close grouped targets and hit them at speed, with clouds of smoke from true BP, then you earn a lot of respect from other competitors and you know you did it the right way. Blackpowder should look like blackpowder is what I am trying to say. Wimpy wisps of near white smoke don't look like the right class..."

Right on.   Doesn't have to be a warthog, just smokey and go boom, not pop.  Spirit of the game.

[Tensleep]

I know the current world FC champion and he goes fast, but he does it in style, as in he does not download, but does shoot .38s. When you can pile shot after shot onto close grouped targets and hit them at speed, with clouds of smoke from true BP, then you earn a lot of respect from other competitors and you know you did it the right way.

I also know the current FC World Champion, Silver City Rebel and the past World Champion, Spur Roberts, neither of these pards download and they are totally impressive. I am happy to call both friend.
When you shoot FC and wind up in the top 20 at EoT you are doing something!

[LoneRider]

I'm already called a "Gamer" why change? I do want the min. load that's legal !!

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Lonerider,

If you really want to go fast, why not use a good 45 Colt and load it up with Adirondack Jack's Cowboy 45 Special brass, 1.3cc of Holy Black and an EPP-UG 150 grain bullet?  Big bore, good boom, very light recoil, great accuracy and no 'filler' fuss.

DD-DLoS

[LoneRider]

I don't want to buy new pistols!! I already have Ruger Vaqueros in 357/38

[Pony Racer]

LR, I have not shot 777 in anything but my inlines.

When I shoot 38's I use either 1.3cc of APP or 1.3 cc of Scheutzen BP.  Iuse a 158 grain bullet made by Parsons Pills.

I would caution against no compression or light compression.  Anytime I have played with that I get wildly inaccurate rounds even at cowboy ranges.

My advice to you would be to see if one of your local smokey shooters has some 38 loads you can try - find out there load and try it.

The reason I say this is felt recoil will be different per gun - my 1.3 cc load in my converted 1851's (R&D kits with sleeved barrels in 38spl) is extrememly mild due to the weight of the gun (I left the loading levers on the bottom).

The darkside is fun - be careful it is addicting:)

[Adirondack Jack]

LR, I have not shot 777 in anything but my inlines.

When I shoot 38's I use either 1.3cc of APP or 1.3 cc of Scheutzen BP.  Iuse a 158 grain bullet made by Parsons Pills.

I would caution against no compression or light compression.  Anytime I have played with that I get wildly inaccurate rounds even at cowboy ranges.

My advice to you would be to see if one of your local smokey shooters has some 38 loads you can try - find out there load and try it.

The reason I say this is felt recoil will be different per gun - my 1.3 cc load in my converted 1851's (R&D kits with sleeved barrels in 38spl) is extrememly mild due to the weight of the gun (I left the loading levers on the bottom).

The darkside is fun - be careful it is addicting:)

777 is VERY sensitive to compression,  and since it is light and crumbly, compresses readily to half it's volume.  Unlike BP ya NEVER wanna crunch down on it TIGHT.    PRESSURES GO SKY HIGH if you do compress 777 too much.  It is NOT BP, nor should it be treated as such.  When compressed, 777 acts much more like a progressive smokeless powder, flattened primers, sticky cases and all. That's why the makers say just touching the bullet base or VERY LITTLE compression, on the order of 1/16 inches.

[Pony Racer]

AJ roger that - that is why I put up front the disclaimer that I do not shoot 777 in cowboy guns.

I just did not want the pard to think that light to no compression was ok with all the other subs and BP.

I got some smokey 11mm french loads - cases are similar to your 45 Cowboy special - you can barely fit in .8cc but they smoke big time!!!

You think it has something to do with crimp and hollow based bullet?

I'll try to get some pics soon.

PR

[Adirondack Jack]

AJ roger that - that is why I put up front the disclaimer that I do not shoot 777 in cowboy guns.

I just did not want the pard to think that light to no compression was ok with all the other subs and BP.

I got some smokey 11mm french loads - cases are similar to your 45 Cowboy special - you can barely fit in .8cc but they smoke big time!!!

You think it has something to do with crimp and hollow based bullet?

I'll try to get some pics soon.

PR

It's been my experience that a load with JUST enough pressure to burn halfway decent and no more smokes the most.   Higher pressures created by heavier bullets, compression, etc seem to somewhat reduce the smoke.  really low pressures don't burn the stuff that well, so a goodly bit of it comes out unburned or becomes bore fouling (thus not making smoke) That seems to hold true with real BP, pyro, and 777.  With stoutly compressed 777 rounds, I've got brass back CLEAN, primers flattened, the bore barely fouled, and no more smoke than a light Unique load  (warning:  Don't ever try that in a lightly built gun.  I did it with a ruger and a marlin, either of which will handle 30K+ pressures.  A '66 or a colt might come apart.....

[Col. Cornelius Gilliam]

I know this has been done before but I can't find it. I'm changing to the Darkside but still want to "GO FAST", need a load that's just barely legal as far as how much smoke!

Thinking like this is why we had to go to all the trouble to make a minumum smoke standard (not a minumum load standard) in the first place.

Your basic premise is completely wrong - you don't need a barely legal load to "GO FAST".

That goes for smokeless too!  I was on Badlands Bud posses at EOT this year and watched him post the fastest times for 1/3 of the stages shooting 44-40's with 200gr bullets.

By choice, I shoot a full case of blackpowder (approx. 34grs) in both 38-40 pistols and rifle.  I also shoot a hammer double shotgun with 1 1/8 oz shot, red wad, and about 62 gr of black powder under it.  I am almost always in the top 3 in the overall for the monthly matches around here (usually 2 a month).  Believe me, you can shoot very fast with full case loads.

Why do you even want to shoot in the FC category if you don't want to make smoke & boom???  I just don't understand.

[LoneRider]

Never mind....no one can give a simple answer to a simple question

[Pony Racer]

LR - again my best advice is to ask some Frontier Cartridge guys if you can shoot a handfull of their loads.

My pards in S. Louisiana were more than willing and it is what finally got me shooting BP/substitutes.

Had it not been for Leatherneck, Parson Delacroix, Kentucky Tom and Crazy Emmit - i probably would not have been converted.

Once I was - VA pards like Tensleep, Arcy, Lincoln County Regulator, Little Rooster and many others just continued my path to the Darkside.

PR

[litl rooster]

If you shoot fast with smokeless you'll still be fast with BP or subs, it's that simple. Start with the required 1cc and work from there.

[Adirondack Jack]

I don't shoot .38s, but my recipe for FC Duelist (and yes, duelist matters) is a relatively light for caliber bullet with a charge of 777 giving me moderate compression (probably a hair more than they call for, but not tons).  This gives me very good accuracy, good functioning rifles, less fouling, and enough smoke so nobody ever complains.  It is NOT the lightest recoiling load possible, but I find with the smokey stuff, yer shot to shot intervals are governed by acquiring targets, not acquiring a sight picture (recoil doesn't matter so much).  Learn to duck and weave and to shoot where the target was before the smoke covered it up........

[Pettifogger]

Never mind....no one can give a simple answer to a simple question

Since you seem to be an expert on light loaded smokeless rounds, let me ask you a "simple" question.  What is the absolute minimum load I can shoot in a .38 Special that will meet the SASS minimum power factor of 60?  That's it, that's all the information you get.  Give me some recipes for an absolute minimum load that will make a 60 power factor at my next match.