Blue Mills belt

[Deadeye Don]

When did the BLUE version of the Mills belt first make its appearance?  Thanks.

[St. George]

It was first issued in 1887, and used the heavily stamped belt plate with matching keeper.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Deadeye Don]

Did the Mills belt buckles have the Mills stamp on them?  The reason I am asking is that there is one for sale on Ebay with NO maker mark on it.  Does this look legit?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250263986447&_trksid=p3907.m32&_trkparms=tab%3DBidding

[Roosterman]

I'd be scared of that one, that canvas looks brand new! Must be un issued and stored in a climate controlled area for the past 120 years.

[Deadeye Don]

I know that is a problem with some of these things floating around out there.  Some companies even sell reproductions that have been deliberately "antiqued".  The lack of makers mark on the metal is what bothers me the most.

[St. George]

'That' plate is an original late 1890's plate - sandcast and un-marked.

The 'ears' slipped over the 'C-Closure' - possible for parade use, but hard to say.

They're hard to find in nice shape.

I can't speak to the originality of the belt, since the close-up isn't very 'close', though there are still some extremely nice ones out there that pop up from time to time.

The one for sale looks like a made-up set, though - with the plate showing far more wear than would be commensurate with it's belt.

The more common '1887' belt plate has been faked for a very long time.

The 'patina' on some of the fakes is equal to or better than that found on an original, and they're properly marked.

A tip-off is the background surrounding the 'US'.

The real ones will feature a stippled  background of tiny raised dots and irregular shapes.

The fake's background will look like grass seeds or short lines/dashes.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Deadeye Don]

Thanks St. George.  As usual you are a wealth of information.  What would you pay for the above item?

[Major 2]

"IF" it's legit it in the neighbor  price wise "

If is the key... I have two original H Mills belt plates , both from Fort Clark, TX
One is the rarer cast indented plate, the other is a stamped Cross Sabers.


http://www.19thcenturyweapons.com/beltsandplates.html

Here is a reproduction http://www.ushist.com/props/inc/images/tl-mills-b_belt_cartridge_mills_blue_l.jpg

[Deadeye Don]

Thanks Major.  IF is the key word here.  I know companies have been getting pretty good at making these and distressing them as well.  The St. George comment regarding it being a "made up" set.  I guess you pay your money and take your chances.

[Major 2]

From that same site here is a photo of a Mills and the Buckel I have
http://www.19thcenturyweapons.com/beltresources/mills81bp1n2pl.jpg

$1450 with the belt    I wonder what my buckel is worth alone ? 

They have some cool stuff ... http://www.19thcenturyweapons.com/beltsandplates.html

[Texas Lawdog]

Maybe that one on e-bay might be a bargain at $211?

[St. George]

Like I'd said - the Model 1887 plates have been faked since at least the late '60's - early '70's.

They came about just as America was embracing the idea of flea markets, and were produced in quantity.

This also included ones with the following centerpieces:

'Old Reliable' - Airship or Balloon - Crossed Sabers - 7th Cavalry (w/Crossed Sabers) - 'Wells Fargo' - 'Remington' - Hunting Dog head - Union Pacific.

There were a couple more - so look carefully at the background - and they're still being reproduced...

All sorts of brass items were made - spittoons, badges, saloon and brothel tokens, belt plates, bugles and identification plates - all with an Old West theme.

As to pricing - 'Caveat Emptor' is the watchword, and if it seems too good to be true - it probably is.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!


Major 2 - if that's the plate you own - it's the rare Model 1881 plate, and it's really difficult to find with its locking device.

[Deadeye Don]

The Mills belt sold for 265 on Ebay and not to me.  I didnt feel comfortable going over my highest bid of  about 215. 

[Major 2]

That it's ...St. George
it is about the same surface condition at the photo...I see if  I can post my mine (My camerra down load cord is missing)
mine is missing the roller on the plate but the keeper retains it's roller.
I know it was found at Ft. Clark,  Brackettville,TX. it shows use and and some pitting.
I see no maker marks ...
I was aware it is one of the rarer plates...

The other plate is of the stamped design a 7 over X sabers, one piece clutch style ( pinches the web belt to hold it in place)
the keeper is a broad tab that catches the wire loop

it is marked:

Military Arms, Equipment  
 & Ordnance Stores
    M. Hartley Co.
 313 & 315 Broadway
    New York, NY

[St. George]

I've never seen a unit-marked belt plate that was an original.

I 'have' seen a goodly number of spurious plates that were marked as such - and some were marked not just to Mills, but to various suppliers associated with the era.

Caveat Emptor...

When a piece was unit-marked - it was done so with a stencil and sometimes a metal tag.

The marking was the soldiers 'number' that was assigned to him when he joined the outfit, as the number belonged to the organization.

Upon transfer - he'd get a new number, depending on what was available.

That explains some of those odd markings found on the backs of the cartridge belts - and since they offered a good, long surface - those stencils also marked the unit's ownership.

An example would be: '2nd VA Vol Inf - 53" - indicating ownership of the equipment by the 53rd private of the  2nd Virginia Volunteer Infantry.

As to that ebay set - the buyer bought the plate - the belt happened to be attached...

Sometimes, that happens when someone puts a 'set' together, and there'll be one piece that's almost worth it, so that gets purchased, stripped off and the other items go onto the table for sale.

I know an old guy who does that with WWI M1911's - he puts a dated (or illegible) Web Pistol belt, Magazine pouch, Frst Aid Pouch w/ Carlisle Bandage tin and a dated or illegible M1916 holster together with the service pistol - swears that it 'came from an estate' and puts a serious price on it.

The only way to not get taken is to not be sucked into the story, and buy just the artifact on its merit.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Pony Racer]

I have an original Mills belt for 30-40 Krag and have worn it from time to time.

The issue I had with wearing it more is that with the weight of the pistols and stuff - it had the tendency to get "loose" slowly and had to be "retensioned" every couple stages.

It did look good with my summer weight white uniform though and made for a nice lightweight belt for the summer.  It also could hold alot of 38 caliber ammo too.

PR