Large Rifle Primers

[Noz]

I've run across a couple of thousand of these, majority are CCI and Remington 9 1/2s.
Has anyone ever run Large Rifle primers  in Starline 44-40 cases?

[Delmonico]

I've run across a couple of thousand of these, majority are CCI and Remington 9 1/2s.
Has anyone ever run Large Rifle primers  in Starline 44-40 cases?

Since Large Rifle primers are taller than large pistol, why would you want to, unless you are trying to bind up a revolver or have a slam fire in a rifle?

[Old Top]

NozzleRag,

I tried that about six months ago and found that they did not not seat, and gave me a bunch of problems.  I marked that one off the list of things to do.

Old Top

[Delmonico]

Large Rifle primers are a bit taller than the pistol ones, neither should ever be substituted for each other.

Small primers are the same height psitol and rifle, there are some cases with lower pressure rifle loads that small pistol primers may be used, some higher pressure pistol loads use small rifle primers.  But even then they should not be substituted with out proper data to support it.  With black powder it should be fine.  However some pistols that have not be slicked up proper will not set off some or all small rifle primers. 

[Noz]

NozzleRag,

I tried that about six months ago and found that they did not not seat, and gave me a bunch of problems.  I marked that one off the list of things to do.

Old Top

I am aware that they are dimensionally different than large pistol but some of the older "recipes" call for a large rifle primer whereas the newer load books call for large pistol. I'm seating them by hand with the Lee Auto Prime(about a dozen for the experiment)and in the 44-40 case they seat well enough to be below the surface of the base of the case. So slam fires or revolver binds don't enter into the equation. Now whether they fire correctly, I dunno.
Old Top, did you try them in 44-40 cases?

[Delmonico]

Well then look for misfires because you are definatly crushing the pellet in the primer, could even set one off seating them.  Your choice, you've been given the facts.

[Noz]

I quote myself "Now whether they fire correctly, I dunno."

If it were 45 Colt, 44 mag or 41 I would not attempt it but the 44-40 being the "rifle" cartridge makes me wonder.

I just ran 12 cases primed with Federal Large rifle primers through my 1866. All primers fired.
HOWEVER. I measured a primer before priming and after firing and Del, I don't think I'm comfortable with that amount of crush.
Another good idea shot to heck.
They sure were cheap tho.

[Delmonico]

What you have is a time bomb that will work right most all the time, but also could either not go off or go off when you don't want it too. 

[Old Top]

NozzleRag,

All that I shoot is the one true caliber (44-40), I found that the primers did not seat unless I put a lot more pressure on them then I likeed, probably crushing them.  They sat either flush with the base of the cartrige or slightly higher, hung up on the Remingtons and just barely worked in the Schofields, did not try them in the 92 or the 73 as I was a bit worried about the slight protrusion of the primer and a tubelar magazine.

Old Top

[sundance44`s]

This subject reminded me of why I don`t shoot others reloads ..

[Delmonico]

This subject reminded me of why I don`t shoot others reloads ..

Good point.

Don't make any difference if the 44-40 came out first in rifles, the cases use pistol primers. 

The terms pistol round/rifle round is just a generalization.

A large rifle primer shoved/gorillaed into a primer pocket made for a large pistol primer is just an accident waiting to happen, either as a dud round, or a discharge when you don't want it, or even a primer going off while priming it.

I've made it a habit over the 30 years I've been reloading to read every book I've ever got my hands on that covers reloading, the text pages of reloading manuals have some of the most valuable reading you ever can get, lots of learning there, several I've read cover the large primer differance in depth.

[Noz]

Reference: Page 637 Modern Reloading (Second Edition) by Richard Lee

[Delmonico]

Reference: Page 637 Modern Reloading (Second Edition) by Richard Lee

Don't have it here at work, what does Dick say about puttin' largre rifle primers in large pistol primer pockets, I doubt he says it's a good idea, he's to sharp for that.

[w44wcf]

Historically speaking, up until the 1920's, .44-40 cases had the small .175" primer pocket and used small rifle primers. I have a batch of these cases, and small rifle primers are correct. Small pistol primers go noticeably deeper into the primer pocket.

When the change was made to the large .210" primer pocket, it was cut to use large pistol primers and thus is too shallow for large rifle primers as has been stated.

That being said, I have recut the primer pockets on some modern .44-40 cases to use large rifle primers just to see if there would be any difference in performance........there wasn't.

w44wcf 

[Noz]

w44wcf, Good information. If I had been real comfortable with the idea I wouldn't have started this thread. My measuring the primers before and after put the nail in the idea. I'll try to swap the rifle primers off to someone else.

[Delmonico]

w44wcf, were small primers at one time different heights?  Today they are the same, I use the rifle primers in certain 32 mag loads and I only use the pistol primers in 22 Hornet.  BTW, Hornet fans figured out about 10 years ago the pistol primers help the accuarcy in most Hornets.

[Fox Creek Kid]

In the 1800's companies usually had proprietary primers so to speak as many used different types of primers, e.g., Orcutt, Berdan, etc., usually having to do with paying royalties (remember, all primer patents then were in effect)  To reload you had to use the recommended primer.

FWIW, modern CCI primers seem to be a tighter fit than say Remington primers per my experiences. If you have to "gorilla" the primers in then you probably need to buy a primer pocket uniforming tool and uniform the pocket, HOWEVER....................if you are using the 44-40's in a revolver DO NOT, repeat DO NOT uniform the primer pockets as you'll invariably get light hits due to variations in case rim thickness. Been there & done that.

[Delmonico]

Sounds right FCK, because as far as I knew the standard small primers are all the same height, it's the large ones where the rifle ones are taller.

[Leo Tanner]

Sounds like ya already made yer mind up on the issue NR, and I gotta say it's a good choice.
     Ya get too comfortable reloading and fergit what it is your playin with.  You don't want nuthin more than just enough primer ta set the main charge inta action.  You can wake me outta bed with a gentle nudge, or you can kick me in the head.  Both get the job done, but odds are I won't come up swingin with the nudge.
     It's always good ta find deals, but if they don't fit yer application, they aint worth a tinker's damn.  I'm no expert, but this experiment has a bad feel to it.  I'm sure you'll find a good trade somewhere.


Leo

[Delmonico]

I'm still curious what Dick says on that, my book seems to be out on loan, hope it finds it's way home.