An opportunity?

[Texas Lawdog]

I am a modern day Lawman who carries approx. 50 rounds of 9mm ammo in my weapon and the two extra magazines I carry on my belt.  I have a canvas shotgun belt for my shotgun and extra mags for my Mini14.  If there is a possibility of an armed confrontation, I want all the ammo I can carry.  I would have done the same, If I had been a lawman in the 19th Century.

[Will Ketchum]

Well said Lawdog!

Will Ketchum

[Dutch Limbach]

Well if you get rid of slides, you ought to outlaw shotgun belts also, I've never seen a photograph with a cowboy wearing a gunbelt and a shotgun belt, it wasn't done, so if we really want to adhere to authenticity, you would have to load only from a pocket or pouch...  And then you would only have working cowboy class.....

Wymore there is a post in the Cas City Historical Society section called, "The meanest good guy who ever lived". The indiviual in question is John Horton Slaughter, and there is a picture of him wearing a shotshell belt above his gunbelt.  There is also a link to a web site that has an article on the man, http://www.desertusa.com/mag00/jun/papr/slath.html.

[St. George]

Once again, we prove the old Staff Officer's adage:
"There is no horse so dead that you cannot continue to beat it".

I'll weigh in here, though I'll have a bit more in the "Historical Society" Forum on Mills Belts, the buckles and fakes at a later time.

There were no shotgun slides - period - unless you find a bunkhouse-made one, and that certainly wasn't something you'd be able to order from the "Wish Book" as you sat out in the outhouse, or around the campfire.

There was, however, a shotgun pouch issued for the 20-guage Trapdoor Forager's Shotgun.

Web belts were developed for the British Army - who were looking to upgrade their field equipment for varying climates.

The web belt was perfect for arid conditions of the Southwest as they didn't dry and crack like leather.
Later, as military equipment evolved, they found that web material was as strong - if not stronger - and took less time to maintain.

On the other hand - those military Mills belts were for rifle and pistol cartridges.

The shotgun belt was for hunters.
The photos seen usually are of hunters.
Men hunted more at the turn of the century, when Indian arrows weren't the nuisance that they once were.

They found favor with lawmen - for the reasons that were stated.

Did soldiers use them?
Doubtful, since they already had a pouch for use and there was no need to spend money on something more.
An Officer may have, since he had the time to hunt and may have owned a shotgun or two.

Hope this helps...

I look at NCOWS as an "immersion" in the time period and not as a "cafeteria-style - whatever looks good" B-Movie event that you see on OLN or at a SASS shoot.

The references are there - buy them, read and familiarize yourself with what was available and go on from there.
Drawing any sort of "historical accuracy" from a movie, a paperback or from a fantasy will only lead to wasted money.

The argument - "If they coulda - they woulda" doesn't hold water - they couldn't - so they didn't.
That goes also for coil springs, investment castings and aluminum parts and guns that never existed.

Fidelity to detail isn't hard at all, and in fact, the digging for  and unearthing those details is what makes the whole NCOWS organization unique.

"People from the Congress" who will vote on something - if there's truth to that statement - are going to vote for a fantasy item - and then, where's their credibility?
Maybe they're the ones that provide the slides...




Scouts Out!

[Will Ketchum]

St. George, my feeling exactly

Will Ketchum

[Delmonico]

Just so know one gets the wrong idea, I use the pregnant women thing to show that we need to dig deeper than photos for our ideas.  There are many things in the "Old West" that do not appear in photos, so to do things right we need to dig deep.

Just out of curosity Will is the photo you refer to the lady with the wheelbarrow full of cow chips or the one with the lady hiding her self behind the chair in the Solomon Butcher collection?  One will also note that most homestead scenes the outhouse is often in the picture, just like pregnant women these were things that were there, but not often talked about.

[Will Ketchum]

Delmonico, the one with the wheel barrow was one.  I don't recall the one behind the chair.  There is a family picture taken outside froma distance.  The woman has her left side to the camers and is wearing a dark pleated dress.  She is obviously pregnant and it is mentioned in the caption.

On pages 38&39 of the  "The Women" of the Time Life "The Old West" series there is a picture of a woman who is said to be " self sufficient" receiving her patent for her homestead from the land agent.  She sure looks pregnant  , although it doesn't say so.

Will Ketchum

[Wymore Wrangler]

Well Will when you submit the proposal that slides use be discontinued, then I would expect you also to submit one for the discontine use of the Ruger Bisley Vaquero because it resembles no gun from the frontier and is based on the 20th century design of Elmer Keith, if your going after one, you better belly up to the bar for all of those things....

[Will Ketchum]

Wy, you just don't get it the.  Rugers WERE APPROVED BY THE CONGRESS Period  If you can show me where in the Tally Book slides are approved by the congress I'll accept that, but only that.

Will Ketchum

[Wymore Wrangler]

Will, yes the Ruger Vaquero was approved, the Bisley Vaquero,  that does not resemble the Vaquero, is not mentioned in the Tally Book so by not being mentioned in the Tally Book, it then cannot be legal correct...

[Will Ketchum]

Fine you bring it up at the next congress.  Or have your rep bring it up.   I haven't seen any at our shoots so I can say if it's a problem or not.

Will Ketchum

[Wymore Wrangler]

Will, I'm personally asking you to bring it up, you are the one that is stressing removing equipment that is not authentic but that has been used for years by NCOWS Shooters, so here is a firearm, clearly not a copy of anything like the Cimarron Lighting and I would expect you would give the same attention to this item...

[St. George]

This is best handled through the various Reps, and the time for this sort of bickering is over - it's lost its charm.

Here's a sort of "Open Letter"...

It has been explained that documentation is needed - document it or be quiet.

It has been explained that the various Ruger products were allowed when there weren't decent-quality clones available - now is the time to put in a "Sunset Clause" to eliminate them.

The mere fact that something was "allowed" to be used - at a time before authenticity became as important as it has, is no basis for continued use.
It was wrong at the time - we know better - fix it now.

These arguments - no matter how entertaining they might be to one or the other party - are read by one helluva lot of people that are reading about the organization to see if it's something they want to join.
They are a part of the reason why NCOWS doesn't grow.

Before a "discussion" like this gets started - think first about who else may read it and misinterpret it - because I guarantee you - that's what's happening, and that's why the NCOWS Posses don't expand.
Keep this sort of petty thing going and it'll eventually die on the vine.

If something like this is a burning issue to you - you clearly need to find something more to do with your time, and realize that this is not the end-all and be-all of the Universe.
Contact the writer about your opinion and have it out privately - not in the public forum of TFS or CAS-L, simply because you enjoy seeing your name in print.

NCOWS isn't for everyone - there are definite demands made towards authenticity and a period "feel" that some folks feel are silly.
Those folks don't need to join, or if they have - they can feel free to withdraw, since the rest of the people that belong are abiding by those demands and they're not having trouble in doing so.
In fact, they sure seem to enjoy it.
If the NCOWS experience isn't being enjoyed - well...

Vaya con Dios - acaso...

Scouts Out!

[Wymore Wrangler]

St. George, your a good pardner, it's alway a pleasure to visit with you in person, but I must respond to your open letter.  Authenticity requirements are no greater today than when this organization started, in my personal view they are less.  By your own admission in another post, you have not attended a NCOWS match as a shooter, and only drop by to visit occasionally .  I attend matches 2 - 3 times a month during the shooting season, and hit as many NCOWS clubs as I can (four this year), finances being my only constraint.  The vast majority of NCOWS members are in it for the shooting part only, I've personally tried to improve my personal level of authenticity, but others don't, does this mean I enjoy a shoot any more than them, no it doesn't.  I'm not saying that we need to lower the authenticity standards, but we need  to emulate for others the higher standard we wish to achieve.  Slides may not be found in documentation or photographs, okay, but were a fantasy shooting game.  Folks like to send alot of lead down range for fun.  A few folks are vocal in their opposition to shotgun slides, my view is they have been used for so many years why make a fuss over them.  KVC and GLFMC both don't like guncarts, they ban them from their events, that's a local club controling their own shoots, I have yet to hear or read that the anti-slides folks say they have banned them from their local clubs, it they are so strong in their views, this is a viable option for them, for clubs that don't care if shooters use them people still can. 

[Big Hext Finnigan]

Howdy,

I'm a bit disappointed that a thread I started, in an attempt to be positive and allow NCOWS to show new folks good examples of good costuming has become yet another pissing contest about shotgun slides and "authenticity."

While I have a passion for history, I think there is a basic issue that needs to be addressed.  NCOWS is more like SASS than it is like Re-enacting. or Buckskinning.  It is a staged shooting sport, in costume.  In many ways, the rules are identical, the formats, props and targets are identical.  The only real difference is in costuming. 

And I think sometimes this difference gets blown way out of proportion.  It's great.. and if I were starting out and had the choice of NCOWS or SASS, I'd prefer NCOWS.  I'm not a fan of the B-Western or minimum costuming option in SASS.  But.. I can dress as well as I choose, so I'm not limited. 

The fact is, all of the shooting games make a stand in the fantasy world.  We are playing Cowboy or Cop or Soldier of Fortune.  Even skeet or trap shooters are pretending to hunt.  In each case, we don't recreate the life/moment that inspires the game.  We take liberties.  If we were really recreating the Old West, we would work long, hard, hot, boring, miserable hours with little or no shooting.  I don't really have an opinion about the slides.  Sometimes I use them and sometimes I use a belt.  Either way, the shooting scenarios are a complete fantasy invention.  Period.  End of story. 

So let's not let minor issues create such difficulty.  Adios,

[St. George]

I'm happy you can have the time to attend all those shoots.

I don't.

When you're at Logan - I'm at Fort Bragg.
When you're at Valparaiso, I'll be at Fort Leavenworth.
When you're at Cheyenne - most likely, I'll be OCONUS.
My dance card's full...
We're deploying a lot of young kids into harm's way and we'll be doing it for awhile yet.
Faced with that - a Cowboy shoot just doesn't register.

You continue to miss the point.
The key to "doing it right" as far as NCOWS is concerned is in the details and the documentation.
Fidelity to period detail is what makes NCOWS different from SASS.
Adopting the modern, competitive equipment blurs the lines.

Ketchum said something to the effect that SASS is a shooting game with a little socialization, while NCOWS is a social environment with a bit of shooting.

Probably a lot of truth to that, even though this is about all the closer I'll get to any C&WAS range folks for quite awhile.


Scouts Out!

[Will Ketchum]

Hext, I am sorry we hi-jacked your thread.  You mentioned how good you looked in the picture and I merely pointed out the slide wasn't period correct.  If NCOWS doesn't strive for authenticity we might as well fold up our tents and go home since we wouldn't be any different from SASS. It just snowballed from there.

People can make all the comparisons they want.  We know we can't and most wouldn't want to escape the modern world and it's influences.  However that doesn't mean we can't for just a little while attempt to get as close as we can with our gear and clothing.  Like I have said that how authentic we get is a personal choice.  But still there has to be some guide lines.  We often use the "eye of the camera" test.  That is if it looks good in a picture it is fine.  This test allows people to take pictures  with some assurance that when the pictures are developed that the people in them and the things they carry and wear will look appropriate for the era.  This is one reason that Vaqueros are okay because they look fine from a distance of just a few feet.  Something like a slide however stands out from 29 feet and never looks "period".  If you don't understand why being authentic is important to most NCOWS members then you don't understand NCOWS.

Shooting is only a small part of what NCOWS is about.  Wy, I wont bring up the Vaquero Bisley because for my posse it isn't an issue and they are the ones I represent.

Will Ketchum

[French Jack]

I can certainly state that shotshell slides are a non-issue with our posse.  All shotshells are staged.  No one needs to have a slide or a shell belt.  We are also moving towards staging the shotgun if it is used in a stage.  This means that everyone will shoot the same gun and the gun and shells will be furnished.  The only departure from this is if someone for reasons of physical necessity needs to shoot a different shotgun.
This also eliminates the need for each shooter to own/bring/carry around a shotgun.

[Will Ketchum]

Jack, interesting idea.  I assume the shooters supply their own shells.  What about black powder cartridige shooters?  Who cleans the shotgun?

Will Ketchum

[Wymore Wrangler]

St George, I bet your traveling more than before you retired from active duty, and I want to say thank you here for continuing to serve your country honorably....