Possible new Category looking for feed back!

[Delmonico]

We don't know if Commodore Perry Owens reloaded or not during his fight with the Bevins boys.  He might have been shoving shells into his rifle every chance he got

Will Ketchum

And that would be a smart thing to do.   Maybe that's a sorta reload.

I still like my defination of gun fight, if one or more is smart enough to take cover then so be it, heck I would.

[Tjackstephens]

If I was in a gunfight or siege and only had a handgun. I'd sure want it to be a Schofield. Mighty fine revolvers and sure enough easy to reload. Hope the closest I come will be a good CAS stage that requires a handgun or rifle reload. But just think, a gunfight after dark in a saloon with black powder revolvers. What could you see even before the light went out? Think the floor and then the door would be the fastest reload. That's where I'd head. How about you Books? TJ  

Will Ketchum,  think that only one outlaw was captured at Ingalls. That was only because he ran out of ammo. Must have been some reloading there. TJ

[River City John]

Why did gunbelt designs evolve with cartridge loops if you didn't expect to reload when needed? It certainly wasn't because they liked to show off a full row of 25 plus shiny new cartridges on their rig.
(It's kinda the same argument about that elusive photo of a pregnant lady in the old west,- just because no one recalls seeing one does not mean it did not take place.)

May be safe to figure any gunfight that erupted in a saloon, especially where all the hideouts were brought into play, were short affairs by nature.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Just wonderin', is there any evidence of anybody using the Weaver Stance in an Old West gunfight?

Yes.


There was a little known feller named Jeremiah Weaver, a gang member of ... well, heck - I don't remember their name jus' now, and when Jeremiah took up his shootin' pose - which featured lots of movement, well ... they called it Weaver's Dance.  Certain details have been lost in history.


     


Or not.

[Books OToole]

I think the fight in Ingalls Oklahoma between the Doolin Gang and US Marshals Bill Tilghman, Chris Madsen and others would qualify as a "gunfight"  I am certain that there were some reloads there .

Now perhaps our esteemed historian Books O'Toole figures that by his definition, it there is a reload then it's either a war or a siege

We don't know if Commodore Perry Owens reloaded or not during his fight with the Bevins boys.  He might have been shoving shells into his rifle every chance he got

Will Ketchum

As the "esteemed historian" I have at least achieved one thing.  You all are working hard to prove me wrong.  That is a good thing, if we all learn something.

However;  Historical documentation is not:  "I am certain that there were some reloads there."

or

"He might have been shoving shells into his rifle every chance he got."

I would really like to see a quote from a primary source that says something to the effect of:  "I took cover and began stuffing cartridges in to my Colt &/or Winchester."


I agree that it is logical that the cases stated probably required reloads.  but....

Logic would have demanded that basket ball be played with a bottomless peach basket:  But for years it was not.


Books

[Will Ketchum]

Mike, some things have to be taken for granted.  Just because no one mentions relieving themselves doesn't mean they didn't

When making out after action reports patrol leaders don't mention switching every change of magazines.  We can assume any prolonged gunfight had some reloading just as any defecating involved some wiping

Will Ketchum

[Books OToole]

F.B.I. statistics reveal that most gunfights [I believe the precentage is 90+] occur with in one yard and take less than 2.5 seconds and involve 3 shots.

Marlin's recent article in The Shootist recalled several incidents in the old west that follow that pattern. 

If we want to all protray that 1-10%, then we are no better than the old Hollywood B-Westerns.

We should all go out and get a Henry carbine;  after all Yellowstone Kelly carried one.

[Wearing underware and wiping one's self is different (private) from a gun fight, which is usually front page news.]


Maybe we should evaluate what a gunfight consists of.  When does it become a battle?

Coffeyville, Kansas
Nothfield, Minnesota
Tombstone, Arizona [OK corral]
Newton, Kansas

More fuel for the fire.

Books

[Major 2]

What's wrong with a Henry ? 

[Books OToole]

What's wrong with a Henry ? 

Books

[Bow View Haymaker]

Uh,    What were we talking about?

[Dr. Bob]

BVH,

A possible new category shooting 1 revolver, 1 rifle & 1 shotgun as a 3 gun category.  Also "Range Detective" which is being shot at the Blue River Regulators which has 2 revolvers and 1 rifle.  And was there a gunfight where anyone is recorded as taking 1 revolver, 1 rifle and 1 shotgun with him! 

Henry's are really neat!

Please forgive me if I left something out!

[Dutch Limbach]

Has anyone mentioned that 1 pistol, 1 rifle, and 1 shotgun are the way GLFMC, the Johnson Co Rangers, and SMVS shoot eveything BUT Working Cowboy and Pistoleer.

[French Jack]

Actually, Dutch, it's everything but Working Cowboy and Originals.     However, this is one of those heated up teapots that generates a lot of enthusiasm for a brief moment.   

[Tjackstephens]

You know I am having so much fun the way things are now, don't know if I could stand it if it was MORE FUN. TJ  

What's a Henry?

[Major 2]

Well I was joking about about the Henry...  "What's wrong with a Henry " 

I suppose  the responce was one of annoyance ...sorry.

Fact is ...I have Henry's and I like them 

[Books OToole]

Major 2;

I thought you were joking/stiring the pot a little for fun.

There is nothing wrong with a Henry Rifle.

Yellowstone Kelly carried a Henry carbine, which was one of only 22 or 24 made. 
The carbines were produced for Army trials.  Kelly's is the only one known to be used outside of the Government testing.

Henry Rifles are great and authentic as can be.  They were still in use long after the '66s, '73s, '76s, '86s and even the '92s were available.


Books

[Tjackstephens]

Major 2, Henry's are great rifles and fit in well with CAS. They also will work right on back to the War Between the States. I was just throwing a little fun your way. Glad that you enjoy your Henrys. TJ

[Montana Slim]

I like the idea of 2 revolvers + 1 rifle.
I don't mind reloading the rifle on the clock, either. I enjoy putting lead downrange 

Eliminating the shotgun from this class is attractive from the perspective of fatigue carrying a shotgun and ammo.
Now I love shooting the shotgun, patricularly moving/reactive target, and would still enjoy participating in special side matches.

Regards,
Slim
(currently in AL)

[Major 2]

 

Two Henry's and C&B pistol !
I know that's not helping 


The issue is though, perhaps not another class but a regimented course


On average a fellow owned what he could afford, had or used what was handy at the moment.

So perhaps a course, say over 6-8 stages
You might have X number of Pistol rounds (say 40) , X number Rifle (maybe 20) and X # Shotgun (say also 20) total to use.
In any combination, and any order you could stage your arms ( aside from the 2 you carry, 1 pistol one rifle or one Shotgun & one pistol )
As you move you used your alloted rounds, once the gun is empied and grounded it's done, and you pick up the other staged piece.

This sorta more a town or woods walk senario, it would allow enough Pistol rounds for the entire 8 stages but split the
Shotgun/rifle to just 1/2 enough each. Still you would have to engage all targets and all stages would still have pistol ,rifle and shotgun targets.

Sorta the Open Range of stages

[Surly Bob]

I'll chime in here.

Your post is probably more obvious than most.  This is probably the only combination left that hasn't been already made available.
Personally, if you can have a pistol, rifle, and shotgun, you can have an extra pistola.  I'd say let this one die.

This brings me to the real reason I would answer this thread...as CAS shooting evolves, I can imagine that change will be demanded in order to keep the sport growing and "alive" if you will...

In this vein, I would expect such classes to emerge with a theme...say specific combinations of guns.  Some of the other posters are heading in this direction and I think eventually it will happen.  Might take 5 - 10 years but I'm thinking that, at least in the black powder category, there is increased interest in cap and ball.  I'm imagining this to grow. 

If so, how about a category similar to range detective or working cowboy with specific guns?  I would be easy to introduce since the shooting would be range detective or working cowboy mechanically...you'd just have to certify their guns as fitting the class?

Seems like a lot of trouble but I said originally that introducing all these classes would continue to complicate things...
It will continue to proliferate as long as we allow...

Good shootin' Pards!