Cleaning up after bp

[JethroBlaze]

Ok... I'm thinkin' I did something not so bright.      

I shot a match with smokeless (actually 2 matches since a friend used my guns to shoot the same match).  Then when out to the range with my 'box' of black powder to see how it'd work in the rugers'.

Shot a box of Goex 'black dawge's thru 'em.  Then a box of reloads with 777.  All said 'n done... about 100 rounds per iron.  Smokeless... then true black...  then substitue.

(Just an FYI... they done purty good.  One had no problems what so ever, and the other didn't get fussy til the 777 hit it.  Then it started stickin' about 1/2 a cylinder around.  But still turned if I tried hard enough.)

Since I'd had mostly smokeless thru them, I cleaned them the way I'm used to cleaning them (with #9 solvent).   Scrub good till the rags come away clean.

The problem is...  Uhm...   Rust!     

I have all the rust I can handle now.  It's all over the 'case hardening'. (The regular blueing is fine.)  Even after rubbing them down using Remingtion gun oil (it's what I had handy), I'm still getting some rust on them. 

How should I have cleaned them?   AND Should I make sure NOT to switch between powders between cleanings?

Until I have more $$$ laying around, they're going to have to do double duty between smokeless and (most likely) 777.

Thanks for any suggestions
JB

[Deadguy]

When done shooting BP, disassemble them and clean them out right away with hot, soapy water, the hotter the better.  Dry them off thoroughly, then wipe them down and lube them up with olive oil if you plan on shooting BP through them next time you go shooting.  That's what I've always done with my BP guns, and never a speck of rust.

[Mako]

Jethro,
Deadguy is right, you should have used what scientists call the "universal solvent," which is simply water.  The petroleum based #9 Nitro Solvent doesn't break down the residues left by black powder.  I can take 90% of the firearms (I mean anyone's, unless you are an 18 year old Marine recruit who's just spent the last one and a half hours cleaning his weapon to assure passing inspection) that have been cleaned with any petroleum based solvent and run a patch though them and get dark streaks on the patch.  You can take a pistol that has fired 80 rounds of BP through it, clean it with only water and push a patch though it that will show no discoloration except where the rifling creased the patch. BUT! you'd better oil it quickly because the steel is stripped clean of any protection.

Most of us use Ballistol, you can get it at many places, Midway being one you might be familiar with.  Midway has their 16 oz. can selling at $8.69 today. A lot of people make a solution they call "Moose Milk," which is usually a mixture of 1 part Ballistol to 10 parts water.  This creates an emulsion which you can use in lieu of straight water and protect the steel from corrosion even as you clean. Those of you who use it this way may correct me if I get it wrong because I use soap and water and then spray straight Ballistol on my weapons, let them sit for a while then wipe them down.  I always run a soaked patch down my barrels before putting them in a safe.

Deadguy uses Olive oil, others use a different organic lubricant.  The key here being they are not petroleum based.  This is important NOT because the organic oils protect better (they don't), but when you use your BP firearm the next time the burning BP doesn't react with the petroleum products and create a hard tar like residue that is hard to clean and if left on the weapon will hide the corrosion going on underneath the surface.

So if you've used Hoppes to clean your weapon and you don't totally strip the surface before the next time you shoot BP, you have created more work and potentially a rust problem for yourself.  You can take a weapon firing smokeless powder give it a half hearted cleaning for the rest of your life and never have a corrosion problem.  Someday when your heirs get it and clean it they may in fact be removing residue left decades before.  If you have shot BP and cleaned it this way they will expose a pitted bore and probably corrosion in other hidden areas.

I have used soap and water on weapons that will never see anything  other than smokeless powder and it is amazing what is removed after you have "cleaned it" using the best  solvents that money can buy.  I'm not suggesting you only use water on firearms firing smokeless propellants.  Many contain ingredients necessary to remove cupric jacket fouling and the residues left by the propellants.  It's just after all of that there are still residues left that amazingly soap (which is just a surfactant to make water "wetter") and water will remove.  I've spent more than an hour trying to clean weapons with the authorized "CLP" only to find them still unable to pass white glove and patch inspections.  After learning the trick of first cleaning with nitro solvent (I now use Sweet's 7.62) spending  5 minutes in the hot shower with a scrub brush,  Mexican laundry soap  (which is a bar of lye soap) I could pass anything for inspection from a 1911 to the filthiest M-60.  The list is long on the things I have cleaned or had cleaned by technicians and maintenance crews with soap and water after they had "cleaned" them with the "authorized" solvents.

Water is not just a tradition, it is the answer to your problem.

Regards,
Mako

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy, Jethro!

You'll get lots of different answers here, but water is an important part.

First, I wouldn't mix smokeyless and BP.  Now with smokeyless and 777 ... I don't know - I've never used it.

A lot of BP shooters use a mix of Ballistol and water, affectionately known as "moosemilk."  it's a mix of anything from 5-1 to 10-1water to Ballistol.  (ie: 7 - water, 1 Ballistol)  The water is what neutralizes the salts in the BP residue after firing.  I also use a Hoppes product, made 'specially for BP.  "Hoppes #9 Plus   Black Powder Solvent"  I suspect it, too is a water soluble oil mixture - it just (to me) smells much better.    I'm using moosemilk now because I'm nearly out of the Hoppes #9 Plus. 

You don't have to dunk the parts, just a wipe with a wetted cloth will do.  Of course, patches run 'thru the bore are required, just like smokeyless.  The Ballistol is NOT a good oil for serious lubrication and preservation, but it works well on the spot and will serve until you can get back home and re-clean and oil with better oils.  As mentioned, Olive Oil is a good, old-fashioned oil, but BreakFree and other superior lubes and action pastes are good or better.  Ballistol is a lightweight coal oil.

IF you must mix your powders, I'd seriously consider cleaning SOME between types. 

Deadguy's suggestion will work - he is proof of his methods.  You'll have lots of other suggestions, too.  Be sure and go up to "the Dark Arts" and read up there.  There's a lot of How-to advise to be found there.

Keep yer powder dry!

[litl rooster]

if I might chime in, Invest in a Boresnake, normally one pull after a spritz of moosemilk and it's done

[Steel Horse Bailey]

if I might chime in, Invest in a Boresnake, normally one pull after a spritz of moosemilk and it's done

Rooster is right ... but he's just cleaned the bore, not the rest of the gun.  Ya still gotta get out the toof-brush, and such to wipe down the frame, outsides an' the like.


Boresnakes are nice because you can wash 'em when you're done and always start out clean.

[Mako]

...The Ballistol is NOT a good oil for serious lubrication and preservation, but it works well on the spot and will serve until you can get back home and re-clean and oil with better oils.  As mentioned, Olive Oil is a good, old-fashioned oil, but BreakFree and other superior lubes and action pastes are good or better.  Ballistol is a lightweight coal oil....

Howdy Steel Horse,
I'm simply curious, what experience or data do you have to support that Ballistol is "NOT" a good oil for preservation?  I might be willing to concede that if you were to do some of the standard tribology tests designed for metals there are many synthetics and petroleum based lubricants that would best it in the standard friction tests.  But only in those tests where the pressures exceed  150 MPa.  You get down into the ranges that are seen on the friction surfaces of a revolver,  lever rifle or shotgun as we use and they will never experience a fraction of the pressures used in the tests.
 
But what do you base your claim that is not for serious preservation, especially of firearms that will be using Black Powder?  Have you had a bad experience with Ballistol?  I'm asking because I have never heard a bad report on Ballistol.  But just as you said there are as many opinions as there are members of this forum, there are also that many experiences, and I respect experience.

Always trying to learn and genuinely curious...

Best regards,
Mako

[Jefro]

Howdy Jethro, glad to see you're leaning towards the dark side. Lots of great advice from some fine pards here that know their stuff. One thing that helped me get a giant leap on the learning curve is to use the "search" feature. I use it on all the different forums to help me nail down the specifics on any subject. I use it for BP clean up, reloading, favorite wad, firearms, loads......You'll find out there are many different opinions and tips on each subject, weeding through it all to find what works best for you is part of the fun. Here's what works for me for BP clean up. I use Murphy's mix to clean with. Spray everything down with Murphy's, pull wet patch through bore and cylinders, out comes nasty black goo. Repeat out comes clean patch. Spray everything down and patch with Ballistol, wipe off excess, put in safe. I use the Otis breach to bore system so nothing is ever being pushed towards the action. I use Gun Butter on base pin, bushing, in action, on all moving parts. If I'm at home I run hot hot water through before the Murphy's and Ballistol to get rid of the goo. For rifle and shotgun I do basically the same thing, but I also use a bore snake after the black goo. Now I'm not claiming my method is any better than all the others, this is just what works for me. The one thing we have in common is water. Murphy's mix is 1/3 alcohol, 1/3 hydrogen peroxide, 1/3 Murphy's Oil Soap.

To transition from smokless to BP. I clean the smokeless guns as usual with Otis bore cleaner lubricant. Then I strip all the oils with M-Pro7, then clean with Murphy's, followed by Ballistol wipe and patch. I can go back and forth from smokeless to BP with this method without a hitch. When I leave the range I spray Ballistol in all the barrels and wipe the guns down, makes clean up later a breeze.

From a Jefro to a Jethro, I hope this helps, good luck in your quest of the darkside 

    Jefro,  Relax-Enjoy

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy Steel Horse,
I'm simply curious, what experience or data do you have to support that Ballistol is "NOT" a good oil for preservation?  I might be willing to concede that if you were to do some of the standard tribology tests designed for metals there are many synthetics and petroleum based lubricants that would best it in the standard friction tests.  But only in those tests where the pressures exceed  150 MPa.  You get down into the ranges that are seen on the friction surfaces of a revolver,  lever rifle or shotgun as we use and they will never experience a fraction of the pressures used in the tests.
 
But what do you base your claim that is not for serious preservation, especially of firearms that will be using Black Powder?  Have you had a bad experience with Ballistol?  I'm asking because I have never heard a bad report on Ballistol.  But just as you said there are as many opinions as there are members of this forum, there are also that many experiences, and I respect experience.

Always trying to learn and genuinely curious...

Best regards,
Mako

Howdy, Mako!

You obviously know of what you speak.  I simply feel that as a preservative oil, it's better than nothing, but lacks the "staying power" of some of the better oils.  Same as a lubricant.  I can't support that with scientific study, only opinion.  This past week, for example I re-cleaned my C&B Colt Dragoon after the NCOWS National shoot. (Last weekend)  Because it was what I took with me, I cleaned, then lubed with Ballistol.  (My "moosemilk" is approximately 5 or 6 to 1 - I like more oil than most.)  To do any real lube, I use it straight.  Three days after the match I found surface rust on two pistols.  Very minor, and it wiped off easily.  The weather conditions at the time of cleaning was 90+ with high humidity (no specific %-age) and then stored (still "wet" lightly) with Ballistol straight oil.  They were stored in a wooden gun case and inside my house from when I returned 'til I took them out to re-clean as I always do after a match.  I also took a cartridge revolver that I didn't end up firing that was cleaned after the last firing with Ballistol "moosemilk" then re-done with BreakFree.  It went 'thru the same conditions, including riding in my spare holster the entire time and stored the same when I returned.  No rust. 

This isn't the first time it's happened to me, only the latest.

As to Ballistol's lubricating properties, I have gotten OK use from it, but I get a better "feel" of the trigger and action when I use BreakFree, TW25, Wilson's trigger grease, black Outers grease, etc.

This is how I have based my opinions, pard.  I'm no expert, nor do I portray one on TV. 

I HAVE used many lubricants and preservatives courtesy of Uncle Sam, and many years in wet, humid conditions (courtesy of Germany) and dry conditions in Iraq/Saudi Arabia/Kuwait, etc.  (By the way, BF as a preservative worked well well in desert conditions, as it did in wet ... BUT, as a lubricant, it failed miserably.  As did ALL "wet" lubes that were available to us then.)


There ya go, pard.  Nothing scientific, just my experiences.

I don't mean to bad-mouth Ballistol - it serves its purpose, but for heavy-duty use, I prefer something "stronger."

Regards,

Jeff  "Steel Horse Bailey"

PS - I had to look up "tribology."  Thanks to you, I learned something new! 

from Wikipedia:

Tribology is the science and technology of interacting surfaces in relative motion. It includes the study and application of the principles of friction, lubrication and wear. The word "tribology" derives from the Greek τριβο ("tribo") meaning 'to rub', and λόγος ("logos") meaning 'principle or logic'.

[Mako]

Howdy again Steel Horse,
I appreciate the answer.  After you cleaned the dragoon did you rinse it in really hot water? How did it get dried off?  I'm curious because a lot of people use Moose Milk because they don't want to worry about stripping the metal surfaces free of any oils and then drying before reapplying a protectant.  A lot of people will see a brown residue in some areas as it dries not realizing that bluing is actually an oxidation.  While "carding" during bluing which is basically wiping the top oxide layer off to get a smoother and more uniform surface finish you will basically be rubbing the top oxides which come off brown instead o the black surface as it appears to the eye. 

In bluing (black oxide salt bath), the blued part is place in a boiling water bath following the black oxide bath, then the still hot metal is submerged in an oil tank.  The metal pores soak up the oil and the part is rubbed down with a rag or disposable cloth.  The rag looks like you have cleaned a rusted part by the time you are finished.  You can take a brand new firearm and many times still get the top layers to slough off if you rub it with a rag.  I'm saying all of this because I'd be willing to get your Dragoon's finish still looks as good as before you cleaned it.

I use "Moose milk" in a 5 to 1 ratio as well (I guess great minds think alike) I use it when I am away from hot water and I use it to do a field cleaning more or less.  I am a bit anal about my cleaning I actually completely strip my rifles and pistols after every match, wash with hot soapy water, hot rinse, use compressed air to blow off then drown them in pure Ballistol.  I have baking pans for each fire arm and a magnetic stainless steel bowl to hold the small parts and I stack them in a safe unassembled for several days to inspect for any rust.  Usually the next weekend I wipe them down, reassemble them, use a high pressure grease made for high galling materials like stainless steel or "Trigger Job" which is a highly molybdenum disulfide doped synthetic grease on the cylinder lock engagement surfaces , hammer/sear engagement and pivot points.  I use Thompson's Bore Butter in the cylinder pin. On the rifle it gets it on the toggle engagement surfaces, sear/hammer engagement and pivot points.  All of this is VERY sparingly I don't want anything but organic oils such as Ballistol, Soy Oil, Olive Oil or such like to have much exposure to the burning BP gases.

Now on my other weapons not using BP I like you use a lot of Break Free which is just the civilian name for CLP.  In the Sand Box I used a couple of things including a dry film spray called MG Coat, and some of the Sentry dry lubricants.

Good hearing from you,
Mako

[JethroBlaze]

Thanks guys!!   

I'm going to shoot at 'End of Trail' this week in the 'frontier cartridge' category.  I had planned on shootin' the local match first, but we got rained (lightning'ed) out.  Kinda nervous about going all out at a big match without a tryout, but, What the Hey!!  I'm looking forward to a 'smokin' adventure.  Woohooo!!

I appreciate the tips.  I'll take my olive oil with me and stop on the way thru OKC at sportsmans or bass pro and pick up some Hoppe's #9 plus.  With all the vendors at EOT, I should be able to find some ballistol pretty easily.  I'll give 'em all a try and see what I like the best.  (I'm leaning towards the olive oil, since I cook with it regularly and I'll be allowed to have it IN the house.  )

Thanks again!!
Jethro

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Jethro - Have fun!

Mako - I sent you a PM.


Ride easy! - SHB