Walker/dragoon with conversion?

[will52100]

I've been thinking of converting a first model dragoon, I see Kirst has just come out with a gatted version.

How accurate would it bee and how would it handle full power black powder 45 loads?  My standard load is 38 grains 3f Graf's bp and a 250 grain big lube bullet.  I wonder if arbor stretch would be an issue?  I haven't had any trouble out of my walkers shooting 50 grain loads, but then the round ball is lighter and cap and ball is less efficent than cartrige.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

A Dragoon will be fine.  Just don't push the loads.  The cylinder will handle probably anything you could do with it, but you're still dealing with the open-top Colt design, not the strong Remington style full frame - which, by the way, Colt copied for their 1873 Series. 

[will52100]

I understand no hot loads, but while I shoot a steady diet of wart hog black powder loads in my 73 it's a full frame where the dragoon is open top and relies on the strength of the arbor.  What I'm concerned about is stretching the arbor using ammo that I load for my rifle.  I've seen little or no evidence of stretch with full house loads with my walkers, but a cap and ball is not as efficent as a cartrige revolver and the 45 colt is pretty heavy.  It's close to the same load as the dragoon with a conicle bullet, but the crimp and lack of a vent(cap and nipple) increseases presure.  How much I don't know.  Just concerned about wearing out a good gun before it's time.  I guess if I had trouble with the arbor stretching I could turn a new one out of ordance steel, but thats a bit of work.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I understand no hot loads, but while I shoot a steady diet of wart hog black powder loads in my 73 it's a full frame where the dragoon is open top and relies on the strength of the arbor.  What I'm concerned about is stretching the arbor using ammo that I load for my rifle.  I've seen little or no evidence of stretch with full house loads with my walkers, but a cap and ball is not as efficent as a cartrige revolver and the 45 colt is pretty heavy.  It's close to the same load as the dragoon with a conicle bullet, but the crimp and lack of a vent(cap and nipple) increseases presure.  How much I don't know.  Just concerned about wearing out a good gun before it's time.  I guess if I had trouble with the arbor stretching I could turn a new one out of ordance steel, but thats a bit of work.

As I bet you know, unlike what SOME believe, Warthog simply means FULL power safe loads, not +P or so-called "Bunker Buster"  loads - which would be practically impossible with BP. 

A full case of BP would probably be just fine in that gun.  If worried, you COULD use a 200 gr. bullet instead of the 250 that replicates (closely) the original load.  (I would.)  That'd relieve a bit of the stress on the arbor and wedge, I imagine.  I understand: while I don't have any Conversion guns, I AM a proud Warthog.  I get 33-36 grs. of 2f or 3f (mostly 3f) in my loads.  I guess a lot would depend on how much you actually shoot.  If you alternate guns and don't shoot it ALL the time, you might be just fine.  Nothing says you couldn't get some Schofield cases and shoot them.  I think they used a bullet around 210-225 grs. pushed by 25-28 grs. of powder.  That'd give the gun a break and still be good power.  Also, if you switch from 3f to 2f, you'd get a bit less "oooomph."  Also, you'd be doing the same thing the Army did.  Do you know what they ended up doing?  The 45 Colt started life with a 255 gr. bullet pushed by 35-40 grs. (by VOLUME)  of 2f (I think) and they had complaints of recoil from the sojers, so they downloaded to about 30 grs.  Also, they OKed the Schofields for issue, but they were in 45 S&W (45 Schofield's PROPER title) and wouldn't chamber 45 Colt rounds.  They ended up with numerous ammo problems - like sending 45 Colt ammo to units having S&Ws, so they started shipping mostly 45 S&W ammo, which fits in EITHER gun.  That's also where we have ended up with the name that is so often used: the 45 LONG Colt; so the soldiers (sojers) could tell the difference.  They just called it "45 Colt ammo" and it became corn-fusing.  NOWADAYS, if ya go into a typical store and ask for 45 Colt ammo, they'll probably give ya 45 ACP!    Some things never change!

[Paladin UK]

Fer SHB.......

That's also where we have ended up with the name that is so often used: the 45 LONG Colt; so the soldiers (sojers) could tell the difference

Thanks fer that pard!! I really did not know that wuz the reason!!  

Paladin (Whats favourite flavour is,  .45 LOOOONG COLT!!!  ) UK

[will52100]

Thanks, I think I may have to go for it, like you said I could always load a 200 grainer.  I don't shoot that much, at least I don't think so, but some other people think I probably shoot way too much!

[Steel Horse Bailey]

No such thing as "shootin' too much!"

[Paladin UK]

SHB says.........

No such thing as "shootin' too much!"

              DITTO!!! PARD!! 

I`ve been shootin fer 42yrs!!........   `n CAS  fer the last 10!!

Paladin (What jest cant get enuf of shootin ) UK

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Fer SHB.......


Thanks fer that pard!! I really did not know that wuz the reason!!  

Paladin (Whats favourite flavour is,  .45 LOOOONG COLT!!!  ) UK

Glad to be of service, sir!

SHB says.........No such thing as "shootin' too much!"

              DITTO!!! PARD!! 

I`ve been shootin fer 42yrs!!........   `n CAS  fer the last 10!!

Paladin (What jest cant get enuf of shootin ) UK

YEP! 

[will52100]

Well I just ordered a whitneyville dragoon, now just got to see if and when I can get a kirst konverter for it.  May wind up getting two whitney's, one to convert and anouther to leave as cap and ball.  It's a special order from Midway, so I hope it doesn't take too long to get here.

[Paladin UK]

Fer will52100 .....

I hope it doesn't take too long to get here.

Anythin over 10 minutes is Far too Loooong!!!

Paladin (What hopes ya enjoys yer  Whitneyvilles  ) UK

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Will,

PM sent with Walt's emule address.  Let me know how you come out.

DD-DLoS

[will52100]

Thanks guys, I've still got almost 3 weeks left on the water, so maybe it'll be waiting on me when I get in, if not it should get there before I head out again anyway!

[will52100]

Well, just talked with Walt, the konverters will be around 325$, not bad.  I think I'll leave it cap and ball for a while though, as there's no option of roll engraving.  That's the kicker, the tooling is expensive, but a opentop conversion without roll engraving just doesn't look rite.

[Pukin Dog]

Well I just ordered a whitneyville dragoon, now just got to see if and when I can get a kirst konverter for it.  May wind up getting two whitney's, one to convert and anouther to leave as cap and ball.  It's a special order from Midway, so I hope it doesn't take too long to get here.

I've converted 3 guns with the Kirst converter and you can go back to C&B by just putting the percussion cylinder back on.  You will still have the loading port but it doesn't affect the ability of shooting it as a standard percussion pistol. 

Of course if you can afford 2 dragoons, go for it!

[will52100]

Well, talked with Walt some more and he offered to have the percussion cylinder machined and converted, that'd take care of the roll engraving and posibly the oval cylinder stops, don't know if the one's he has have the oval stops or the more modern like the 3rd model.

Only posible concern is that the ratchet teeth may wear down overtime as the steel of the percussion cylinder is softer than the 4140 alloy that Walt uses.