Comparing capacity of balloon head cases with modern brass

[w44wcf]

Pards,
For those of you that may have an interest, I compared the b.p. case capacity of the early "solid head button pocket" (aka: balloon head)  cases with current brass. The data below is the amount of b.p. the the early cases hold as compared to modern brass.

.38 Special  +1 gr.
.44-40  + 2 grs.
.45 Colt +3 grs.
.45-70  + 3 grs.

Sincerely,
w44wcf

[Driftwood Johnson]

Thanks

I ran into a bunch of 45 Colt Balloonhead cases and a few 38 Special Balloonheads last year. I've been meaning to do just such a comparison, just haven't gotten a round tuit yet.

[Dick Dastardly]

Thanks,

I'd like to know the water volume of both if that's possible.

DD-DLoS

[Ranch 13]

 That is interesting, and for the most part the difference in capacity , probably wouldn't show up on the target , or the chronograph.
What method did you use to fill the cases?

[Noz]

That's why Elmer Keith was able to get more performance out of his 44 Specials than is possible today.

[Ranch 13]

I don't think that had much to do with what Elmer got out of his 44 spec. Folks are a bunch more mamby pamby about pressure now than then.
My 44 specials digest anything Elmer ever put thru his, and do just fine, and the chronograph says they can be doing magnum velocity without breaking a sweat.
Most of the time it seems like it takes at least 2 grs to make enough velocity difference in full power black powder loads,that the chronograph will start to show any spread worth worrying about, and even then the 2 grs will make less deviation than , even a few tenths of a grain with smokeless.

[Dick Dastardly]

Dang, I just can't remember rite offhand, but did Elmer spell his last name with the i before the e, or the other way around?  Anyway, he did decommission a number of fine S&W 44 Spl guns and probably some others as well before the 44 Magnum got worked out and made.

The real reason the 44 Magnum was made with 1/8" longer brass was so that shooters couldn't chamber it in 44 Spl guns.  Actually some of the loads worked up in developing the 44 Magnum will do just as well in 44 Spl cases, and perhaps some will do even better.  All that said, when shooting these fine pistol chamberings with Holy Black there's not enough velocity difference to sneeze at.  The real factor is which one will work best in your rifle?

I happen to shoot 44 Magnums and my rifles seem to like them a little better than 44 Specials.  They both do a fine job with a compressed charge of Holy Black under the Mav Dutchman Big Lube™ bullet.  I can honestly say that I've not loaded either one of 'em with heathen fad smokeyless powder for at least 10 years.  I have, however, loaded many thousands with bp.

Both the 44 Special and 44 Magnum are fine black powder cartridges.  Care needs to be taken to get a good stout load under a heavy enuf (200 grain) bullet so that pressure builds up and makes the brass seal the chamber.  If that's done there is not a blowback problem.

One advantage that the 44 Magnum (44 ELR or Extra Long Russian) has over the 44 Special is that every now and then some heathen shooter will have a couple boxes of empty brass that he will pass along free.  Since I only load 'em with Genuine Powder, he never wants 'em back.  hehehehehehehe (Dastardly snicker)

DD-DLoS

[Russ T Chambers]

I just looked up at my copy of "Hell, I was there!" and it's Keith.

[Noz]

I don't think that had much to do with what Elmer got out of his 44 spec. Folks are a bunch more mamby pamby about pressure now than then.
My 44 specials digest anything Elmer ever put thru his, and do just fine, and the chronograph says they can be doing magnum velocity without breaking a sweat.
Most of the time it seems like it takes at least 2 grs to make enough velocity difference in full power black powder loads,that the chronograph will start to show any spread worth worrying about, and even then the 2 grs will make less deviation than , even a few tenths of a grain with smokeless.

Elmer himself said he could not get as much powder in the new cases therefore he could not get the performance level he wanted out of the 44 Special. This was pre-mag days.

I don't believe that you can tell the difference in a full balloon case of FFFg and a full solid head case of the same.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Here is a photo I came across on my hard drive today. I'm not exactly sure where I got it, maybe even from a posting on this board. Anyway, it is a pretty graphic representation between the powder capacity of a 44-40 Balloon Head case and a modern Solid Head 44-40 case.

[Adirondack Jack]

Elmer ran compressed loads of 2400 and not a few loads duplexed with a little BE under the 2400.  He was of course the prototypical adrenaline junkie, needing the little bit of fear involved when touching off loads as likely to break guns as power level records.
The case capacity increase helped ease pressures and give us his monster loads at safer pressures, but we COULD have just as easily ended up with a .44 special on steroids, maybe a precurser to something like the Redhawk, and done so with "special" length chambers.  But, 1.6 OAL was already with us with .45 Colt, so it wasn't a big deal to make .44s at that length.....

[Dick Dastardly]

When comparing the capacity of balloon head vs modern brass, I see it this way.  Yes, the balloon head brass held more, but when they were first developed there was no "gun exploder" powder to stuff 'em with.  Not all of the "balloon head" cases were made of brass either.

Since this is a black powder forum, I'll confine my remarks to this venue.  Whether or not a couple of grains maximum made a significant difference was, I think, less important than the fact that the guns could only handle just so much pressure.  A steady diet of whomper loads would make the chambers egg shaped and eventually cause the guns to come from together.

Now, it's a different cat when we take a modern Ruger, built tough as a tank, and load it up with very stout loads in balloon head cases.  The guns may very well handle the rounds very well and ask for more.  That wasn't always the case, and certainly wasn't the case back in "the time".

So, when considering the shooting of very stout charges in old balloon head cases, consider this.  Without regard to the case, is your gun made to stand the very strong loads?  Most clones/replicas are not.  Certainly none of the open tops were made to handle the charges that could be put in those cases.  Black powder, probably.  Smokeyless heathen fad powder. . . no way.

So, this is more of an academic discussion of actual volume available, not pressure maximums.  Don't let a couple of grains more volume ever lead to the thought that the cases were safe with anything but Holy Black.

Now, I'd like to get my hands on some of those balloon head cases to shoot with my ROA via the Kirst Konverter cylinders.  40 grains of FFFg under a PRS bullet sounds like a hoot to me.

DD-DLoS

[Adirondack Jack]

DD, to the best of my knowedge, one piece, boxer primed cartridges have three distinct generations.

  The first was essentially no different than the brass 12GA hulls we use today.  The case head is stamped and the rim is a folded bit of metal.  Inside, one can see the fold.

The case like the pic of the sectioned one above followed, and is what we commonly call "balloon head".

The MODERN cases like we have today debuted with high pressure rounds, specifically the .357 magnum, circa 1935.  By the advent of the .44 mag in the 50's, "modern" cases were in use in several chamberings, and very shortly thereafter they became the standard, even for calibers like .45 Colt.

By that time, nobody cared about BP, as none were being sold and only a few anachronistic handloaders were still playing with charcoal.  AAMOF were it not for CAS, it's quite likely BP in the kinds of guns we use would be deader than 105 yr old oysters.

[w44wcf]

DD,
Regarding water capacity, in a bulleted case -  In the past I have used a hypodermic needle to introduce water into the case through the primer flash hole until full then compared the weight to the pre water filled  bulleted case.  Unfortunately, that technique does not work with balloon head cases since the water level will not rise above the bottom of the primer pocket inside the case. 

Ranch 13,
To arrive at the data, I used fired cases (from the same chamber) so that the bullets would be a slip fit.  I determined the cartridge oal prior to compression by dissecting original b.p. cartridges.  Once I had determined that oal, I placed black powder into the individual cases, with the bullet just sitting on the powder charge until the established oal was equalled. I then weighed the individual charges to find the difference between the case capacities.

DJ,
Thank you for the nice picture.  The one on the left is considered a "solid head, button pocket" type which profile fits the description "balloon head". The early ones made by UMC carried the letters "S H"  as part of the headstamp.

AJ,
Thank you for the additional info.

The book "W.R.A. CO. Headstamped Cartridges and their Variations - Volume 1" show the following case head types:
> Folded Head (balloon head configuration)
> Folded Head with reinforcing cup (balloon head configuration)
> Solid Head With Button Pocket (balloon head configuration) - type that I compared with modern brass
> Solid head with Solid Web - modern brass

w44wcf

   

[Wills Point Pete]

 Dick D, if you want to load forty grains of BP, go ahead. Use your compression die and mash the powder down and seat a bullet. Black powder does not mind massive compression. I've pulled the bullets out of old rounds and the powder was just one solid mass.
I did load forty grains ahint of a 250 grain bullet, never again. In my Colt clones the recoil was downright ferocious. I thought the trigger guard had broken my signaling finger.
Loading forty grains is fairly easy, but slow. Pour ten grains into the case and mash it down, hard. Pour ten more and mash it down. Repeat. Repeat again. It has to be mashed down in steps otherwise the top layer in hard as a rock and the bottom is still a bit fluffy. I'm not sure that the charge needs to be broken down into quarters, thirds might also work. Quarters was just easy math.
Bottom line, it can be done. It just isn't worth the trouble.

[Dick Dastardly]

I agree with ya Pete.

If I want that kind of whomp I'll go get some 44 Magnum store bought stuff and save the empties for loading with bp.  For SASS shootn', I want the fun, not the pain.

In all my SASS guns, a compressed load of bp does shoot best.  No fillers, just powder and bullet.  That's probably why AJs C45Spl brass is getting such good reviews for accuracy.

DD-DLoS

[w44wcf]

Being a "purist" of sorts, I like to duplicate the early vintage b.p. cartridge loadings.  That means 40 grs. in the .44-40 and either 55 or 70 grs. in the .45-70    

The early .45 Colt b.p. colt cartridges did vary ......28 or 30 or 35 or 38 or 40 grs.  I like 40 grs. 

It's great replicating history!

w44wcf

[Ranch 13]

  Shooting 37 grs of goex 3f behind a rem bulk 255 in a 5.5 inch barrel , you get a pretty good idea about why the troopers howled for a lighter load in their sidearms.
38 grs of the same stuff behind a 180 in the 38wcf lets you know why that one had some followiing also.

[Fox Creek Kid]

The original .45 Colt was loaded with 30 to 35 gr. (usually the former) of FFg. Remington loaded this round with 40 gr. years later as Elmer Keith often wrote about it. An easier way to get 40 gr. in the case is to slowly drop tube the powder and then not seat the bullet quite so deep.

[Bryan Austin]

Howdy Again

Here is a photo I came across on my hard drive today. I'm not exactly sure where I got it, maybe even from a posting on this board. Anyway, it is a pretty graphic representation between the powder capacity of a 44-40 Balloon Head case and a modern Solid Head 44-40 case.

In reference to the primer pocket design in the UMC cartridge vs the primer pocket design in the Star-Line pocket. Which is better? Some what interesting if you ask me.