Crossdraw Holster

[Charlie Bowdre]

I'm confused ...now that is easily done...
Is this 'dance ' a rule or not .
I am very aware of making sure the RO knows I am doing a cross draw , and to be fair have never had any problems. Safety is and should be everyone's concern here.

Now if this 'dance' is being taught in RO 'school' is it a rule  and must be followed? If so anyone have a clip of what exactly are the correct moves. Because the next thing will be some RO giving someone a DQ cause he is not doing the 2 step according to 'the rule'

Appreciate any input  and PLEASE I am not posting this to shake the trees or cause any discomfort.
Thanks
Teddy Blue

[Russ T Chambers]

Being an ROII and having been playing this game for close to 20 years, I just had to double check this to see if anything may have changed. (Sometimes things sneak under the radar)  These are excerpts from the current SASS Shooter's hand book, ROI and ROII hand books.

From the Shooters handbook and the ROI Handbook:

21. Although cross-draw and shoulder holsters are legal, they represent a significant safety
concern. No holster may depart from the vertical by more than 30° when worn. Extreme
care must be exercised when drawing a firearm from a cross-draw or shoulder holster or
returning the firearm to leather. The user must "twist" their body, if necessary, to ensure the
muzzle never breaks the 170° safety rule during the process. (NOTE: The 170° safety rule
means the muzzle of the firearm must always be straight down range +/- 85° in any direction.
If a competitor "comes close" to breaking the 180° safety plane, the 170° safety rule has been
violated and the competitor is at fault). Shooters competing in the Gunfighter or "B"
Western Category must wear two standard holsters, one on each side of the body. Cross
draw, shoulder, or butt forward holsters are not allowed within these two categories.
Any gun that breaks the 170° safety rule will result in a Stage Disqualification.

From the Shooters handbook and the ROII Handbook:

GUNFIGHTER CATEGORY
Since the Gunfighter uses both revolvers, shooting right– and left–handed, the best position for the Range Officer is directly behind the shooter. Two standard holsters are required, one on each side. No cross-draw or "butt-forward" configurations are allowed.

The above rule also is applied to the B-Western Category.

You will note there is no requirement to either TWIST or DANCE, as long as the shooter does not break the 170 rule!!!!!  This is then a stage DQ, NOT a match DQ!!!!!  Anyone teaching that the DANCE is required should go back and read the rules and the handbooks!!!

[Charlie Bowdre]

RTC
Thanks for your input . I was beginning to worry that there was a specific 'dance motion ' needed .

I do agree 100 percent in the safety factor and have no problem with taking the little extra time  to make sure that myself and others are not in any red zone.
Thanks again.
Teddy Blue

[Buffalow Red]

apparently its who you took the ro classes under as to what interpetation

[Daniel Nighteyes]

apparently its who you took the ro classes under as to what interpetation

The rule against breaking the 170 is a WHAT, and there are many ways to do it (HOWS).  All too often, and not just here, folks get to thinking and believing that their HOW  is the only HOW, or even worse, begin to think of it as a WHAT.

In this case, they get to thinking/believing that "doing the dance" is an absolute requirement (a WHAT), when it clearly isn't.  That's sorta dumb.  IMHO, of course.

[Willie Dixon]

The rule against breaking the 170 is a WHAT, and there are many ways to do it (HOWS).  All too often, and not just here, folks get to thinking and believing that their HOW  is the only HOW, or even worse, begin to think of it as a WHAT.

I'm new to this sport, but I think I can add some advice to this due to my experiences in the military.  It's all about (In respect to Mr. Nighteyes) HOW you do WHAT you need to do to stay safe.  In basic training I was told how to hold the rifle and the m9 a very specific way, a way that I was not accustomed to, and as such shot terribly.  I'm sure the stress and lack of sleep may have had something to do with it as well.  Once I got to my boat, it was a different story, I told them I disliked the m9 and showed I could qualify and troubleshoot a 1911.  Not only did I shoot expert, but I also as allowed the weapon because I knew exactly all those little "quirks" the 1911 posses, that firearm I've fired all my life, since I was 5!  They also allowed me to change my stance, a little bit.

Basically what I'm getting at with that story is that my Master Chief Gunner's Mate didn't care how I shot, what I shot with, or how I looked.  Just that I was safe, and that I shot accurately. 

It's hard when you are starting out in a new sport, hobby, job, anything, and what you hear is what you assume is the "only" way.  More often than not, there are as many ways as there are instructors... all that matters is what works for you.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Yup! 

[Fairshake]

Well Willie Dixon, If you stay in this sport you will find as I have that what Daniel says is true to the core. I was a FBI trained firearms instructor and sniper on the swat team. Also armorer and law dog for 15 years. Just this past Saturday while at the loading table I took one step to the rear to make room for another shooter. A RO who was shooting and not the RO that day called me down. He said NEVER LEAVE THE LOADING TABLE WITH LOADED AND HOLSTERED GUNS. I looked at him in total dis belief. I shook my head and benched my weapons. Some people become stupid when given authority. I've never been to an RO class but I'm sure they must talk about this.

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Fairshake, I think Willie Dixon was agreeing with me/us.

[Willie Dixon]

Totally was, I agree already with RO's and them having some issues.  I've had that problem in my pirate re-enactment group, with the blackpowder flintlocks. She told me to "forget everything I've learned about handguns." with a stern face, I laughed at her and said, "So like how they can kill people? No thanks."  So I no longer shoot in my pirate group, I just sail, and that's fine with me.  I'm totally agreeing with you Mr. Fairshake and Mr. Nighteyes, my biggest concern always with a firearm even an airsoft gun, is safety. 

On my former airsoft team, if someone flashed me with their pistol or rifle by accident, it'd whip 'em with it!  It only took one friend, with his M-4 to teach the whole group, after the Coast Guard, I really don't like people pointing guns at me.  Now, with this, I won't pistol whip 'em, but I'll get loud.

[Black Powder]

Darn, I was kinda hopin' somebody made a footprint map a la Arthur Murray to put on the floor and so I could learn the dance...

Every shoot, cross-draw shooters are reminded about the 170 rule.  Then everybody's reminded about the 170 rule regardless of holster used.  No discussion of how to do the what.

First time out, all I did before I shot was to tell the RO that I intended to draw my cross-draw first, from this position, is that OK?  I was as nervous as heck and was sure he had every reason to be particulalry attentive to this new shooter.  We were both relieved that I'd obviously paid attention to my need to safely use my gear.  I know he was; he told me!

BP

[Willie Dixon]

That's what it's all about anyways when it comes down to it though, is the safety.  I used to practice with four other guys in close quarters with assault rifles with real ammunition, like 7.62 mm ammo.  Took a long time for us to even get there, about two months with airsoft and paintball guns.  It's all about technique and tactical awareness.

That being said, I don't mind people reminding about the 170 rule, I'd rather see it ever time.  Now if they purposely go after someone because of their cross-draw or shoulder harness, that'd nerve me a bit.  Everyone should care, not just head-hunting the guys that like those rigs.

Final note, I've always believed it isn't the gun that's dangerous, it's the person behind it that can be. 

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Final note, I've always believed it isn't the gun that's dangerous, it's the person behind it that can be. 

Nah, it's a mechanical problem.  You know, a loose nut on the trigger...

[Daniel Nighteyes]

Darn, I was kinda hopin' somebody made a footprint map a la Arthur Murray to put on the floor and so I could learn the dance...

One, two, cha-cha-cha.   One, two, cha-cha-cha.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

"Let's twist again, like we did last summer!"

or better still;

"TWIST AND SHOUT..."

[Charlie Bowdre]

"TWIST AND SHOUT..."

How about
"Twist and Shoot"??

[Daniel Nighteyes]

One, two, cha-cha-cha.   One, two, cha-cha-cha.

Oops!  That shoulda been "One, two, draw-and-shoot.  One, two, draw-and-shoot."

[Willie Dixon]

Oops!  That shoulda been "One, two, draw-and-shoot.  One, two, draw-and-shoot."

I can totally see that! LOL dancing to like the boot scoot and boogie or something! LOL