Update: Cowboy Carriers for '66 and 73 rifles

[Adirondack Jack]

After a logistics snafu, we have a small "proof of CNC program" run of carriers completed and ready to ship.  We have a bunch more carrier blanks in the pipeline, pending getting them from Italy, but those we were able to buy, machine and assemble right now are done.

I have emailed the first few folks on the waiting list.  For those who did not receive an email yet, your patience is appreciated.  As fast as we can get (or make) blocks and get them machined and assembled, we'll be contacting you in the order which we received your "reserve my carrier" email.  For those not yet on the list, if you have interest in a Cowboy .45 Special (or .44 Russian) carrier for your '66/73, it might be a good idea to get on the growing reservation list now by emailing info@cowboy45special.com with the words "reserve my carrier" in the subject line.

Hats off to Happy Trails and his "elves" for getting this brainstorm from sketch to (limitied) production  in about six weeks.

<<Jack>>

[Dusty Morningwood]

Hey Jack.  The check is in the mail!  I am very excited. 

[Adirondack Jack]

Dusty,

Just got the mail. You should see something by Thursday or Friday at the latest.  Load ya up some nice RNFPs (Other shapes may work, but for now....)  with an OAL not longer than 1.220 in the meantime.

[Adirondack Jack]

Howdy folks.  Just a little update.

I shot the borrowed '73 with the Cowboy Carrier installed at a local shoot this past Sunday. I used it four stages, running my Spur Special Marlin one stage (just so it wasn't neglected in the cart).  The '73 ran perfectly!!  I'd never run one in match conditions, so it took a bit to learn the lever stroke VS my short stroked Marlin, but once I got comfy, it was all good.  The last stage, my best of the day, had the little 160 Lee bullets and a light smokeless load zipping down range 'pop, pop, pop' at a nice clip, exen in a "non-short stroked" rifle.

Also got a little report from happy Trails just now.  He cobbled together one of our early prototype carriers, (we're flat out of blank carriers right now, waiting on our supplier) upgrading it with the new Cowboy Carrier cartridge stop, and sent it to a friend.  That fellow installed it and ran a little test the other day.  He ran 100 rounds or smokeless and fifty of BP, and here's his report:

"The 100 round, 44 Russian test turned out to be a 150 round test, 100 smokeless loads and 50 BP loads.  I figured I would see if the BP fouling would bind things up any.

Well, you have a winner here.  No misfeeds and no binding after the 150 rounds with no cleaning of the gun whatsoever.  The only time between strings of 10 round each was to let the barrel cool down a bit. "
--- Rich Heller__

(Hey Rich, YES, COAL max for Cowboy .45 Special is 1.225, and we're pretty much stuck with something very close to that for .44 Russian as well, at least for right now.  As things roll along, we might be able to offer a dedicated carrier for .44 Russian with a little longer OAL, but logistics are limiting us right now to a carrier that runs in either caliber.)

[Dick Dastardly]

So AJ,

I was even thinkn' of a 73 for myownself, but I'd like to know if yer newfangled carrier will work with Cowboy 45 Special brass loaded up with Holy Black and an EPP-UG boolits?  If so, I cud weaken and consider something in addition to my Browning 92s.

DD-DLoS

[Sgt. Jake]

   Howdy Dick   Dont want to speak for Jack,but since the rifle is my back up and I used to shoot it constantly from 1994 till 2004,its well used,probally better now that Jack put all sorts of Haps goodies in there.I have lost track of the round count sometime in 2000,at that time it was a little over 18000,mostly black.Using your fine Big Lubes tm,10 stages in one day no fouling problems,Im getting too old for that kinda thing in 100 degrees 90% humidity,anymore.   I know we feed dummys with 185 gr. SWC,120 gr. Barnstormers and EPP/UGs.,like corn thru a goose. Jack said to me that he would probally mostly run smokeless thru it ,so he didnt have one more gun to clean after a match. At that point when I took it down to fit the carrier in it ,he had never seen one apart before,being a Marlin man. I told him he had the OK to shoot all the GUNPOWDER/ the Real Deal, he wanted too. I know from chating with him he knows how to take it down to clean it,Jack ya gots my OK if ya want too.           Adios  Sgt. Jake

[Adirondack Jack]

DD,  The BP is not an issue with this carrier, as the above note tells us (man, talk about torture, 100 rounds of smokeless lube THEN 50 rounds of BP)

As to bullet shapes:

I just ran a little dry fire feeding test.


First I tried the EPP crimped over the shoulder.  Not good.  If I cycled the gun perfectly, they went, but 50% of the time I didn't and they hung on the chamber mouth.

Next I tried the EPP crimped behind the forward driving band, just roll crimpoed into the forward edge of the grease groove.  Perfect feeding.

I tried the same test with my little Barnstormer bullets.  They fed best when crimped with the nose long, and worst when crimped like a full wadcutter.  Loaded long they cycled fine as long as I racked the gun with some speed.  Part of the issue is timing.  This is an old rfle and doubtless the lifter arm cam on the lever is worn, so it needs a little ballistic "oomph" to make sure the carrier rises fully and not 5% short of the top....  Run "briskly", they worked fine".

I see Jake has popped in.  Thank you again for the use of your rifle Sir.  I still have to fiddle with the tension on the whisper springs.  I think it's so light now that the tendency is to baby the stroke, where before, with the "Model T" springs in it, ya naturally racked it like ya meant it.  If I crank it briskly, it does indeed about feed anything.  if I THINK ABOUT IT, and my rythem gets messed up, then the most problematic bullets might catch as the carrier isn't lifting 100%.  (I know this because I can clear it by manually pushing the carrier another few thousanths and then an empty case with a slight roll crimp will run right in.....)

ANYWAY,  I ran a mixed test as follows:



1: EPP UG loaded long
2: Barnstormer 120 loaded long
3: Slim's new BP bullet
4: H&G 185
5: Lee 200 (I think)
6: JP 200 (original) Big Lube bullet


I loaded em in random order and cycled em through about 6 times without a hitch, moving right along like I meant to get the stage overwith before sundown...... and they all cycled flawlessly.

[Sgt. Jake]

      Jack You are welcome Sir,in for a penny in for a pound. I was going to order a few odds & ends from VTI,I will order the cams for lever and carrier lifter,I have a feeling the latter might be where their might be a worn cam ,of course I could be wrong ,been wrong a time or two. I have never read or seen how it is done but Im sure Hap could give you some hints,and I have all the faith in the world in you smithing efforts.That is an interesting lineup,the first four are some real tuffys.   Adios  Sgt. Jake

[Adirondack Jack]

      Jack You are welcome Sir,in for a penny in for a pound. I was going to order a few odds & ends from VTI,I will order the cams for lever and carrier lifter,I have a feeling the latter might be where their might be a worn cam ,of course I could be wrong ,been wrong a time or two. I have never read or seen how it is done but Im sure Hap could give you some hints,and I have all the faith in the world in you smithing efforts.That is an interesting lineup,the first four are some real tuffys.   Adios  Sgt. Jake

I'd not worry about it.  I'd hold off on VTI. Lemme play with the springs a bit more.  The good part of wire springs is they are amenable to messin with without busting em

[Sgt. Jake]

     Jack   Will do.                  Adios  Sgt. Jake

[Dusty Morningwood]

What OAL should my .44 Russians be to run in my 66?  I use the BigLube 200 gr and seat to the crimp groove.  I also need to get a crimping die for the Russian.  Who makes one?

[Adirondack Jack]

What OAL should my .44 Russians be to run in my 66?  I use the BigLube 200 gr and seat to the crimp groove.  I also need to get a crimping die for the Russian.  Who makes one?

Howdy, The max OAL needs to be no more than 1.220, maybe 1.225. Since I don't have the mav Dutchman bullet, I can't tell ya for sure what the OAL of your rounds is now.  If it turns out that crimping your bullet in the groove makes em a hair long for this carrier, it's not a big deal to crimp em a bit shorter, as common bullet alloy is soft enough to take the crimp wherever we need it to be.  I do know you can make em work, one way or another

[Dusty Morningwood]

Hmmm!  Right now they mic out at around 1.260, but I can easily reset my die when I get get the carrier and crimping die.

[Adirondack Jack]

Hmmm!  Right now they mic out at around 1.260, but I can easily reset my die when I get get the carrier and crimping die.

Yep, that'll work.  Bump em down a bit.  Now, just kicking this around a bit.  As you know, the original purpose of the Cowboy Carrier was to get the Cowboy .45 Special running in the 66 and 73 rifles. It is a little shorter than a .44 Russian, but folks soon figured out the .44 Russian could be made to work with the same carrier.

For the purist who absolutely couldn't abide crimping the round ahead of the crimp groove (personally, I load em to work, whatever it takes.  I'm not doing "Good Housekeeping" photography of my ammo) you COULD always take the cartridge stop out of the new Cowboy Carrier and shorten the nose of the stop a little to accomodate slightly longer rounds.  I say "COULD", with slight unease, as this opens up the potential of screwing the cartridge stop up.  If it was me, I'd adjust the seating depth and call it good.

As to a .44 Russian crimp die, I simply dunno (I'm a .45 guy).  I expect LEE makes one, and Midway and others carry it???  I also expect some would grind the nose of the .44 special die down to get more "reach".

Mebbe ya should start another thread to ask?  Somebody will jump in with better answers on that.

[Hell-Er High Water]

Dusty,

Lee makes a set with a carbide sizer.  This is what I use.  I use them in a Dillon 550B press with no problems, good results.

Midway shows them to be in stock.  Others have them also I would imagine.

HHW

[stepnmud]

Dusty, I've been using Springfield Slim's 44Slim 160gr.TC big lube bullets in 44WCF Uberti Henry and 44 Russians in Uberti Model P revolvers. Just checked OAL and right at 1.225" and also use the standard Lee 44 Russian carbide dies with no special crimp die.

http://www.whyteleatherworks.com/Accessory%20page.htm

here's a pic of a 44 Russian with big lube 44Slim and a chamber insert for 44 Special cal.

[Dusty Morningwood]

Well, seein' as how I traded Springfield Slim a scattergun for 7500 200 gr BigLubes, I think I will just have to seat deeper and crimp above the groove for now!! 

Slim.  The mailman hates me now.

[stepnmud]

Them pills should last ya for awhile.

my 4.75" barreled revolvers are sighted in for 10 yrds. with 200gr. bullets and are dead on, but when in a CAS match on a timer, I seem to use too much front sight and sometimes will shoot just over the top of targets. With the 44Slim bullets,I feel they help me stay on target better when trying to shoot faster, with a little less recoil. I have used the same amount of blackpowder(1.3c.c.) in the 44WCF rifle as the the 44 Russians in pistols and using the same bullets for both and rifle is still plenty accurate even for cas size targets at 100yrds.Although lately I use 2.2c.c blackpowder in rifle,cause I like the smoke and boom. Sure could stretch out the powder with 44 Russians in the rifle and cheaper Russian brass.

[Adirondack Jack]

Them pills should last ya for awhile.

my 4.75" barreled revolvers are sighted in for 10 yrds. with 200gr. bullets and are dead on, but when in a CAS match on a timer, I seem to use too much front sight and sometimes will shoot just over the top of targets. With the 44Slim bullets,I feel they help me stay on target better when trying to shoot faster, with a little less recoil.----

Now ya gone and let the secret of shooting light bullets out.  When I shoot duelist a light bullet at modest velocity allows me to "paint" the target with the front sight a little high of the rear sight and let 'er rip

[springfield]

Dusty: the 200 grain MAV and the 160 grain 44Slim have the exact same nose length (did it on purpose) so you are just as well off with what you have. As to the mailman, well, he took that job for the security and the benefits, he has to work extra hard for it sometimes.