Rifle question on lockups

[JL McGillicuddy]

Gang,

I had my rifle lock up on me two times on Sunday at the match.  (Shooting BP of course)  One was determined to be partly because the lifter spring screw had backed out some.  The major cause of both was powder residue in the carrier slot. 

One comment was made to me that if I was going to shoot BP in that rifle, I should have the carrier milled out a little on the sides to give the residue somewhere to go without locking up my rifle.  Seems like a workable idea on the surface, but it was the first time I had heard it said. 

Anybody got any experience with this sort of thing?

I am shooting .45 Colt in my rifle.  The crimp is tight enough to hold the bullet in place if only a primer is set off behind it, so it isn't a light crimp problem. 

Thanks!
Jack Lee

[Cuts Crooked]

Pard, if you are gonna shoot BP 45s in a long gun you need to read this thread, now:                                                           http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,6290.0.html

[Steel Horse Bailey]

What KIND of rifle?

[JL McGillicuddy]

What KIND of rifle?

Sheesh!  You would think I would be smart enough to remember to put that in there, huh?

1873 rifle.  20" octagon. 

One issue that I know of is that the rifle has whisper springs in it.  They were in there when I bought the rifle.  That is going to change as soon as C and I gets their springs back in.

JLM

[Adirondack Jack]

Whisper springs can be adjusted to give ya a little bit of "slam down" on the carrier.  Get hold of the lifter arm spring and tweak it with a couple pairs of pliers to give it a LITTLE more downward pressure.   But, any spring that feels "light" when cycled isn't gonna give ya much positive push on the carrier.

I'd say first CLEAN the rifle well and with the gun disassembled enough to remove the lifter arm from the carrier, assure that the carrier freely sliides up and down with a little clearance on the sides. If not, polish the sides of the carrier using a sheet of glass and some wet or dry paper (run it wet), finish with 400 or finer. 

If it does, and ya keep the carrier lubed with a little ballistol or olive oil, it's gonna work.  A little spritz of ballistol or olive oil into the carrier slot after a few stages isn't a bad idea.

YES, milling a slot in the sides of the carrier can help, but isn't required.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Thanks, JL!

Well, I don't think I'd bother having the carrier milled any.  That gun was DESIGNED and MADE for BP.  I believe the problem is elsewhere.  I have a '66 in 45 Colt - same carrier and basic operations.  I have the lightened springs, because the stock springs were chewing their way through my lever!  I can also EASILY fire a hundred or 2 rounds with no more than the occasional spritz of H.#9-PLUS BP solvent or Ballistol Moosemilk @ 6-7 to 1 water & Ballistol.

What round (load) are you shooting?  Cuts Crooked steered ya to a good spot to study.  I have found that to work dependably in my rifle I need A) 250, 230 or 200 gr bullets, with 250 being best, B) LOTS of lube! both bullet AND smeared on the receiver walls after cleaning from the previous shooting, and C) FULL cases of BP - no lightweight bullets and reduced charges here.  If you want to shoot reduced power loads and perhaps fillers with little bullets, stick to smokeyless powder.  I DO only shoot full charges, but not everyone does, and I respect that - it just ain't me.  However, with BP and especially shooting 45 Colt, you need the combination of heavy projectiles  and a full charge to make the case swell as much as possible to seal the chamber.

Have fun findin' whut works for YOU!

Jeff - SHB

[JL McGillicuddy]

I am shooting full house BP loads under a Big Lube bullet.  The loads this past weekend were under a 250, though my next batch is 200s. 

CLP was applied liberally after the last tear down earlier last week to the carrier area.  There seems to be space to wiggle the carrier in its slot when the rifle is partially disassembled.   

I am thinking I just need to remember to oil the carrier after every two stages or so for now. 

AJ, the Whisper spring that is in there was bowed a bit by my 'smith when he tuned the rifle up to give me a little more oomph out of it.  He commented at the time that it didn't seem to be putting a lot of push on the carrier lever even after he bowed it. 

Thanks for the thoughts guys.  I am thinking that I will try replacing that carrier spring and keeping it oiled before I have the carrier milled.

Jack Lee

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

With 45 Colt you will probably get a bit more blowby with 200 grain bullets than you did with 250 grain bullets. You simply don't generate as much pressure with the lighter bullet. Most shooters I know who shoot Black Powder 45 Colt loads in their toggle link rifles give a squirt or two of Ballistol or their favorite water based BP solvent onto the sides of the well the carrier rides in. Maybe a couple of times a day. It seems to help.

The carriers on my '73 and my Henry have been relieved on the sides. It is not visible from the outside but it is there. Happy Trails did this for me. The point is two-fold. It reduces the mass of the carrier a small amount and it reduces the surface area where the carrier rides against the sides of the frame, so slightly less friction. This would probably also help in the case of blowby fouling from 45 Colt. I shoot 44-40 in my rifles, so I don't have that problem.

[Pettifogger]

Here's an original 73 in .32-20.  It came with a recessed carrier.

[JL McGillicuddy]

Pettifogger,

I think that might just say it all.

Thanks gang!

Jack Lee

[will52100]

Interesting, Pettifogger.  I had to disk sand the sides of my carrier in my Henry, never thought of milling out like that.  I wonder if any original henries were built like that from the factory.  My Henry came from the factory tight enough that I couldn't wiggle it side to side.  I've seen a Henry bind up from smokless powder fouling, the owner just bore snaked the barrel and didn't disasemble the action.  What I did with mine was use my disk grinder with 120 grit paper, then 600 grit.  I didn't take much off, basicly I would shoot till it fouled to a stop, clean and take a little more off,( I didn't want to buy a new carrier)  After about three treatments I got it to where I can go 4-500 rounds with out coming to a stop.  Sometimes a little less depending on the humidity and such, if it starts to slow down at a match I just spritz a little ballistol lube and it's good for the rest of the match.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Interesting photo, Pettifrogger!  I wonder if that was a period modification from a very knowledgeable gunsmith "back in the day!"  My '66 will go 250-300 rounds without a teardown, but I have to "spray 'n wipe" a number of times to get that to happen.  (And that's using BigLube boolits, too.)

[Jefro]

Howdy, I just started shooting PB a few of weeks ago with my Marlin, used Slims 38 Snakebites for six stages and never had a glitch. Yesterday we went to an annual that had eight stages, so I decided to take my slicked up 73. Been shooting that other powder with it for a couple of years. After four stages I had to give it a couple shots of Murpys, wipe with paper towel, then a couple of squirts of Ballistol. We had a fine lunch then it was back mosquito control. Man I love this stuff..........

        Jefro,   Relax-Enjoy

[Driftwood Johnson]

Interesting photo. Thanks.

I had a chance to handle an original '73 made in the 1890s on Sunday. I remembered this photo so I looked at the carrier and it did not look like the one in  Pettifogger's photo, the sides were flat just like on a Uberti. I will be checking out the carriers on all the '73s I come across in gun shows though from now on though.

[Adirondack Jack]

A carrier with a LITTLE clearance, a bullet with plenty of proper lube, and liberal use of OIL on the durn gun would be a recipe I'd stick with.

My souped up Marlins are touchy "full race" guns, but if I run good lube in the right bullets and slobber plenty of sweet oil (ya find it with the other oils in the grocery, you know it as OLIVE OIL) she runs happy happy with charcoal.

ain't no reason a 66 or 73 won't do the same.

I just got a report of a fellow running 100 smokeless .44 rounds, then 50 BP rounds through his 73 without any cleaning, as fast as he could load and fire, slowing only to let the barrel cool, and he had ZERO issues.

[Sgt. Jake]

    Ive seen another 1873 winchester,just so happened to be one chambered in 32 WCF,that had the carrier relived the same as the photo the Pettifogger posted.That is the only 73 that I had noticed that relife on,Driftwood I think you know the fellow who owns the 73 in 32 WCF,The Larzrus Man. Ive seen a number of 73s in 44 WCF and 38 WCF and never noticed the relife on those cal.,Im begining to wonder if it was just on the 32 WCF chamberings.         Adios  Sgt. Jake

[Adirondack Jack]

    Ive seen another 1873 winchester,just so happened to be one chambered in 32 WCF,that had the carrier relived the same as the photo the Pettifogger posted.That is the only 73 that I had noticed that relife on,Driftwood I think you know the fellow who owns the 73 in 32 WCF,The Larzrus Man. Ive seen a number of 73s in 44 WCF and 38 WCF and never noticed the relife on those cal.,Im begining to wonder if it was just on the 32 WCF chamberings.         Adios  Sgt. Jake

Could be.  I note there is a whole bunch more meat on the sides of the small caliber carrier than on the big bore.  The relief may have been as much about removing weight as anything else.

[Tubac]

Hi Gents,

I have a '73 made in 1883 in .44/40, and the carrier is not milled out.

Tubac