Frustrating BP revolver test

[Deputy Duke]

I recently picked up a Uberti 1875 Rem. in 44-40. So this afternoon I loaded up a couple of dozen rounds with 35 grains of 2fg Kik drop tubed and the RCBS 44-200 with BP lube. I set some standard rifle chicken silhouettes up at 15 yards and had attem. I do believe the load would suffice for short range deer hunting but the cylinder would barely turn after 4 rounds. I sprayed with the diluted Ballistol and water mixture and got 4 more rounds off before it bound up and I had to hand rotate the cylinder. I came up to the house and did a more thorough cleaning job and shot 4 more and had to hand rotate to get the 5th off. gave up in disgust.

Next I took a Pietta stainless 44 C&B that now has an R&D 45 cylinder and shot it with 35 gr. drop tubed etc. etc. Same stuff, 4 shots binding starts. The Pietta works fine with the C&B cylinder.
The only bright spot for the afternoon was using the Ballistol emulsion in a spray bottle and a .458 rifle Bore Snake like Dick D. showed me at the Fandango last Fall. Worked slicker than two eels making love in a bucket of snot.

So just for the record I tried the 1875 with 6.0 gr. of Red Dot and it just rolls on and on. I sure wish the manufacturers still made guns for real powder.

Guess I'll just stick with my 1860 44 Colt conversions that seem to love BP.

Deputy Duke

[hellgate]

My best guess is the fouling is building up on the cylinder face and filling the narrow gap. You're gonna have to decide if it is a BP gun or smokeless gun. If it is a BP gun you will need to increase the cylinder gap. You may get by with a .001-.002" increase.

[Dick Dastardly]

Silas McFee and myself ran a test that Silas is now writing up as an article that may get submitted to the CC.  The nut of it is this.  We ran 60 rounds as fast as we could record the data.  The gun was still running.  The gun was a Rem 58 with a Kirst Konverter cylinder.  The ammo was C45Spl with EPP-UG Big Lube™ bullets lube sized with PL-II.

Most pards shooting Holy Black find that the additional lube hauled by Big Lube™ bullets keeps their guns running.  I routinely shoot full Three day annual matches without cleaning my guns till I get back to the ranch.  The guns never loose accuracy or function.

So, maybe it's not those guns.  Maybe it's the bullets that haul puny amounts of bp lube. . . . .

DD-DLoS

[Wills Point Pete]

 I'm no Remington expert but I do believe they've had this problem since the 1875 Remington was the new gun. It has to do with the cylinder bushing and cylinder base pin. The Colt design is made where the majority of the gas escaping from the barrel/cylinder gap is blown kinda forward of the bushing and base pin, the Remington's gas hits it square.

The fix is to coat that cylinder base pin heavily with BP lube and when the cylinder starts to drag, pull the cylinder and base pin, clean the pin and recoat with BP lube. I'm told that the Bore Butter stuff is great for that. I just use my homemade lube.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

You've got some good suggestions so far, Deputy Duke.

The amount of lube and where it is probably is the key.

I use the 250 gr BigLube (tm) Boolit in my 45 Colt 1875 Remington.  (And my AWA Colt 1873)  Without sounding like a commercial for the BigLube salesguy - Dick Dastardly - or the pards who sell cast/lubed versions, like Springfield Slim, the BL boolits haul between 3 and 5 times the amount of lube that most others do.  I haven't had the luck that DD has, but I HAVE shot 30-36 rounds before I felt the need to spray and wipe the face of the cylinder and the front of the cylinder pin.  I never had to turn the cylinder by hand, so it would have gone longer before hat poin, I simply didn't want to put the strain on the internal parts. 

Some of the reasons and/or fixes has been explained by Wills Point Pete and Hellgate.  Another is that Uberti makes these Remington repros with MINIMUM tolerances, rather than Maximum, it seems.  They have close cylinder face-to-barrel gaps and they have minimal headspace.  This causes the residue and debris to cause problems sooner than with most Colt repros.  It works very well with smokeyless powders - which, let's face it, is what Uberti was aiming for; NOT the few shooters still using BP.  Most shooters find the 1875s to be VERY accurate, and these "minimum" tolerances play a BIG part in that.  The same thing happened when Smith & Wesson brought out their re-issued BreakTops.  They quickly got a bad reputation for gunking up with BP.


Lube - or lack of it - may be your biggest problem in these great guns.  You can use the best lube money can buy, but if there isn't enough of it ...

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I don't want to jump on Dick's bandwagon, but with the PRS Big Lube 250 grain 45 cal bullet in my 45 Colt loads I can go all day, or even two days, without giving my revolvers any attention at all.

Part of it is the lube. There is no commercial bullet out there that carries that much lube. When the fouling sprays out of the barrel/cylinder gap, if it is saturated with lube, it stays moist and does not build up a hard crusty layer on the front face of the cylinder. If the fouling on the cylinder face can be kept moist, it will not tend to bind up as teh cylinder rotates past the barrel. Part of it is also gun design. I shoot BP with big lube bullets in real Colts, Rugers, and Italian colt clones. All of them have a large enough cylinder bushing that they direct fouling away from the cylinder base pin. If the cylinder base pin can be kept free of dry fouling, the gun will keep rolling freely longer. I have shot an Uberti 1875 loaded with Black Powder a couple of times, and it did not bind badly, although the cylinder bushing was not as pronounced as on a Colt, Ruger, or clone. You don't mention what model the Peitta stanless revolver was.

Lastly, don't overlook your choice of powder. Generally speaking, the dirtier your powder burns, the more lube you need to keep the fouling soft. The cleaner it burns, the less lube you need. You may be able to get away with the amount of lube the RCBS bullets carry with a very clean burning powder like Swiss, but with a dirtier burning powder you may not get away with it. For most of my BP shooting over the years I have used Goex and Elephant. Both pretty dirty burning stuff. I have gotten the best results with those powders with Big Lube bullets and plenty of lube. I have also pan lubed regular Smokeless bullets with thin, skimpy lube grooves with BP lube, and they did not perform as well, because they did not carry as much lube. Recently, I have been using Schuetzen powder which burns much cleaner than either Goex or Elephant and I might be able to get away with less lube with Schuetzen than I did with my other powders. If I recall correctly, KIK is pretty dirty burning stuff and you probably need more lube with it than the RCBS bullets can provide.

The very last thing I look at is the barrel/cylinder gap. I have around 1/2 dozen revolvers that I shoot BP in, and every single one of them has the original factory gap that it came with. In my experience, with a good BP bullet carrying plenty of BP compatible lube, a gap of .005-.008 should be sufficient for shooting Black Powder. Down around .002 will probably cause a problem, but .005-.008 should be fine. Open the gap up too much and you may actually make things worse by allowing fouling to build up even faster than with a normal gap.

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Driftwood,

Glad to have you on my bandwagen tootin' my horn anytime you please.  For, your words have iron and you speak the truth.  Yes on that cylinder/barrel gap.  Too little and there is binding and it won't get better without physical treatment (widen the gap).  But, too much and something similar happens.  For reasons I can't know or explain, a wide gap invites a kind of hard fouling that defies reason.  The stuff should blow out, but it builds up instead.

So, the recognized barrel/cylinder gap for free running guns shootn' Genuine Powder is exactly what you said. . . Five to Eight Thousandths of an inch.  Less is bad and more won't help.  If you want verification mike the barrel/cylinder gap on some ROAs.  They are known for trouble free shooting of the Holy Black.  You will find all of 'em within the above range.

All that, and get some Big Lube™ projectiles.  You deserve to have fun, not frustration.

DD-DLoS

[Sunwapta Haze]

Deputy Duke -

I shoot '75 Rems in 38/357 with Big Lube Snakebite bullets.  They will run a 10 stage shoot with out too much problem.  They most certainly will run a six stage shoot with out any issues.  I have to admit to some initial fouling problems in the beginning but all I needed to do was soften the lube (added some more crisco).  No modifications to the cylinder barrel/frame gap were required.  Just lots of lube spewing onto the cylinder pin. 

If you haven't already done so, mosey on over to the SCORRS forum for lots of good advise on shooting you Remmies with the one true powder.

In lieu of a big lube bullet you could drop a bit less powder and add a grease cookie (made from BP friendly lube - check the Dark Arts for formulas) or simply smear some lube over the cylinder like you would with a cap 'n ball.

[springfield]

Just so I can put my money where DD's mouth is, so to speak, if you will e-mail me your name and address I will send you a free box of 50 44-40 Big Lube(tm) bullets. But with the condition that you tell us how the gun works with just this change. We get a bit prejudiced so it helps to have an outside party do some testing. I'll even give you your choice of 160 or 200 grain bullets.  mwwhyte@comcast.net

[Dick Dastardly]

Thanks Slim,

You're a true Cowboy.  Your generous offer may well get this pard on his way to trouble free shootn'.  You've got nuthin' to loose by takin him up on it Deputy Duke.

DD-DLoS