1860 Colts with Kirst Konverter cylinders for NCOWS???

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy,

I'm a SASS Cowboy, but I'm going to be joining NCOWS this season.  I have a question about a brace of 1860 Colt replicas made by Pietta.  I'm having them outfitted with Kirst Konverter cylinders and ejector rods.  They will be chambered for .45 Schofield.  I doubt that this gun is strong enough for full house .45 Colt bp ammo.

I intend to shoot C45S brass with EPP-UG bullets over 1.3cc of FFFg Holy Black.  The round will emulate original round ball performance in that gun.  I'm wondering, if I'm lucky enough to make it to Evansville, IL, if these guns would be allowed in the bp shooting event?

Thanks in advance,

DD-DLoS

[Trap]

   Dick D. I see no problem with either the gun or load. I do hope you end up in IN. not IL.though.

[Deadeye Don]

Evansville INDIANA  is where you want to be for sure.   About time you joined NCOWS!!

[Irish Dave]

Hi Dick:

Firstly, look forward to having you join us in NCOWS and hopefully meeting up at the Nationals in Evansville, IN.

Not to usurp our Honorable Judge (Mr. Trap), but are you referring to the regular bp main match or the 45 Colt championship?

The 45 Colt Championship requires the use of ammunition provided for the match by Black Dawge and Black Hills. Everyone will be using the same cartridges for that match (bp separate from smokeless, of course). And 45 Colt is the only chambering, given that its our "45 Colt" championship.

Your pistolas as converted using 45 Schofield rounds are perfectly legal for the NCOWS Nationals (both the firearm and the cartridge are approved).

Hope this helps.

[French Jack]

DD-- did I understand your post that you would be shooting the 45 Cowboy Special case with a 150 gr. bullet?  Have you tried this particular load and how does it perform?

Not to stir up gumbo- but does our esteemed judge give his blessing on this cartridge?  I am aware that the Schofield or .45 S&W chambering is not a problem.  Just curious.
Hope to see you at the Nationals.  Glad to have you.

[Dick Dastardly]

Thanks Gentlemen,

About the little C45Spl brass. . .  Adirondack Jack designed it and Starline manufactures it for him exclusively.  Ten-X makes loaded ammo with it.  The interior volume is the same as the venerable .45 ACP, known as a real man stopper.

I load it with a tightly compressed charge of 1.3cc of FFFg Holy Black under either the Big Lube™ EPP-UG 150 grain bullet or the J/P 45-200 grain bullet.  Both are very accurate and the little bullet pushes SASS maximum velocity limits.  I've had graph readings as high as 950 fps over my Ohler 33.

I've been shooting it out of my "illegal" ROA with the brass backstrap and squareback triggerguard.  I've got a brace of these fine guns and I really enjoy them with both C&B and cartridges via the Kirst Konverter cylinders.  I know, I know, they aren't NCOWS legal.  That's why I got the brace of 60s.

Whether or not that ammo will be allowed remains to be seen.  I hope it does because I bought a lot of AJs brass.  I probably wouldn't pay the extra to get Schofield brass that nearly duplicates the performance I already have.

Hope to shoot with you in INDIANA.  That's a fur piece south of here, but well worth the trip.

DD-DLoS

[Trap]

  I may have mis-spoke, (in my best Hillary impersonation) The 45 Cowboy special Has Not been approved ( I did not recognize the abreviation for what it was). I tried to get the inventor to submit it for approval, but he declined to do so.  I thought you (D. D.) were shooting a schofield brass. Sorry for any misunderstanding.    jt

[French Jack]

DD-- I have plenty of new 45 Schofield brass-- PM  me with your mailing address and I'll send you some you can load for the Nationals--

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy French Jack,

As soon as I can get my affairs settled, probably in a week or two, I'll be able to make plans.  Your generous offer will be gladly accepted if the NCOWS Nationals are able to be included in my plans.  Right now, it looks more promising than the convention was.

I'd like to reciprocate with something equally useful.

My address is included in my contact information.  Please click the banner below and my web site will open.

Thank you for your help.  The brass would be returned after the match.

DD-DLoS

[Quick Fire]

DD if you need some Schofield brass to keep just pm me and I'll send you a couple of hundrend so you can always shoot at an NCOWS match.

[Dick Dastardly]

I get the feeling that NCOWS is a very friendly bunch.  With these generous offers I'll have a hard time weezeling out of attending NCOWS matches.

So, till I get some of those Schofields loaded up, are my Ruger Vaqueros in 44 Magnum legal?  I load up max loads of Holy Black under Mav Dutchman Big Lube™ bullets.  Same stuff for my Browning 92 rifles.

DD-DLoS

[French Jack]

Yes, the Ruger Vaqueros and the Browning 92 are legal, as well as the 44 mag loading.

[Dick Dastardly]

Hoorah!!!

I've got a sagging shelf loaded with 44 Mag bp loads.  My RVs will hold me over till the 60s get ready.  They're achin' to get shot.  My 1860s go to Walt this weekend.  Hopefully they will get done before the serious lead starts to fly.

Somehow, I kin see myself pullin' a couple of open tops and blazing forth Gunfighter style.  Makes me smile till my face wrinkles.

Pardon my enthusiasm.  I just enjoy shootin' Holy Black.

DD-DLoS

[Adirondack Jack]

  I may have mis-spoke, (in my best Hillary impersonation) The 45 Cowboy special Has Not been approved ( I did not recognize the abreviation for what it was). I tried to get the inventor to submit it for approval, but he declined to do so.  I thought you (D. D.) were shooting a schofield brass. Sorry for any misunderstanding.    jt

Somebody woke me up on this one.  My apologies for neglecting NCOWS to date.  As some of you may know, I live in upstate NY, and to my knowledge there are no NCOWS chapters within close range of my location, so I never have joined NCOWS.  For that reason I did not submit the cowboy .45 Special for NCOWS approval earlier, as I was under the (apparently mistaken) notion I needed to be an NCOWS member to have any standing to do so.

I just received word of this thread, and will be mailing a few empty cases and JP200 bullets, as well as a couple of DUMMY rounds (no propellants in the mail) for consideration.

Worthy of note perhaps is the extreme similarity of the C45S to a .45 WEBLEY (not .455) round loaded for about 60 years, starting prior to 1880, for use in.45 Colt arms by WRA CO among others.  The stumpy round had a .452 bullet, a case head that exactly matched .45 colt dimensions, and was used in both british contract produced SAA and Webley-Green (aka webley Government) revolvers in British foreign service for many years.  Though not "common" in the US, WRA CO continued to produce and offer for sale the .45 WEBLEY round IN THE US until they were bought up by Western in 1932. (I'm thinkin somebody was using em). I would have to guess that like so many other arms in the 1800s, the "british contract" SAA and Webley Green revolvers ended up in the American West, particularly in the far west, as our Pacific ports traded with all the asian countries including India at the time. The .45 Webley is identical to my case in almost every respect.  AAMOF, there is some reason to believe it was the .45 Webley, and not the .45 Government, that Elmer Keith refers to when he says "Anybody who says there is no such thing as a "Long Colt" never saw the ... used by the British in the late war (WWI)"  I paraphrase from memory, but there is reason to believe this is the "real" short colt because it was in all respects faithful to colt dimensions save length. The stumpy Webley was a BP round, and was about .030 shorter than my current round.  Because it was ballooon head brass, it had just about the same case capacity.  Standing on the bench, the two are indistinguishable.  that's about all I have for any "historical" info.  I'll send the brass out tomorrow.  I hope it helps, as Dick Dastardly has been a great inspiration in helping the "efficient" .45 come to life.

[Dick Dastardly]

Thanks AJ,

Sent you an emule before I saw your post here.  I appreciate your effort to bring this fine brass to NCOWS for inspection and hopefully, approval.  I really enjoy shooting the C45Spl round and feel it would be a very positive contribution to NCOWS, especially where a pard wants to use big bore guns but has wrists that won't tolerate full house 45 Colt recoil.

I'm joining NCOWS because the great pards there have made me aware of a great alternative way to enjoy historical Cowboy Action style shooting.  I'm thinkn' they won't have all 10-10-4 stages

DD-DLoS

[Books OToole]

That picture and the write up are very informative.  I'd like to see another picture.  One showing side by side the:

.45 Webley - .45 Cowboy Special - .45 Schofield - .45 Long Colt.

Books
(a member of the authenticity committee)

[Adirondack Jack]

Howdy Books,

Here's a picture of some rounds from my collection, exploring the long and the short of .45s.

[Books OToole]

Adirondack;

Thanks for the picture.

Will a Cowboy .45 Special, fit in a revolver chambered for .45 Webley?

Books



PS - Another member of the committee shoots Webleys.

[Wells Lamont]

Can someone tell me where I can get these conversion cylinders?  Do they make conversion cylinders that will handle 45 Colt rounds?

[Deadeye Don]

Can someone tell me where I can get these conversion cylinders?  Do they make conversion cylinders that will handle 45 Colt rounds?

If you are asking about conversion cylinders for the 1860 army, there are two companies that see their own product.  YES they are made for 45 colt.
http://www.randdgunshop.com/catalog.php?category=Conversion%20Cylinder%20Kits

Alot of companies distribute these.  Here is one.   

http://www.fcsutler.com/