Target and graph results - AJ Hollow base & EPP-UG in C45 Spl brass.

[Dick Dastardly]

Winter has been long and I finally got to pop some caps.

More shooting is indicated, but here are some preliminary results with Adirondack Jack's hollow base 125 grain bullets.  I loaded them as cast without sizing in Cowboy 45 Special brass over 1.2cc of FFFg Black Powder.  I filled the hollow bases with Pearl Lube II and ran a parallel test with the same load and brass using the proven EPP-UG Big Lube™ 150 grain bullets lube/sized to .454.

The gun used is my very old Ruger Old Army with a Kirst Konverter cylinder.  This rig has proven to be very accurate over many years of shooting.  The chronograph is my old Ohler 33 with Four foot screen spacing placed 15 feet from the muzzle.  I forgot to bring my sand bags, so I used my padded pistol case for a rest.

We had an OAT of 33 degrees F.  No wind and bright sunlight.  The amber Ohler sky screen shields really help to eliminate bullet glint from that very bright sharp sunlight.

After one cylinder full of EPP-UG bullets to foul the barrel I got the following results for Six shots each of the two bullets being tested.

AJ Hollow base. . . 847, 880, 895, 851, 836, 855 fps.  Hi=895, Lo=836, ES=53, AV=860, SD=22  Group inside 4" at 50 yards with one flyer.

EPP-UG . . . . . . . .809, 824, 819, 825, 836, 803 fps.  Hi = 826, Lo=803, ES=23, AV=817, SD=9  Group inside 3" at 50 yards with one flyer.

I'll scan the targets sometime today and add them to this thread.

Conclusion, AJs bullet will work with black powder but some other lube system needs to be used.  After one cylinder full the gun was fouled so bad that further testing had to wait for a complete cleaning.  These little bullets may work fine with smokeless powder but if used with black powder they will absolutely need some lube adjuncts.  The lube in the base may have helped, but it wasn't adequate.  When I run my next set of tests I'll be using a smear over the bullets in the chambers.

Recoil was gentle and I would consider accuracy to be just fine for SASS main match use.

Thanks AJ, for another bullet design, and one that will be more forgiving of chamber/barrel size differences. That hollow base design could make a real positive contribution in guns where the chambers run small and the bores big.  FWIW, all the holes were nice and round indicating no tumbling.

DD-DLoS

Now I've added the targets.

[hellgate]

Hey DD,
You oughta mark one of the chambers a #1 and shoot a 6 bull target where each chamber has it's own bull. You may find that there's one chamber that's throwing the flyers. Use that one as your open chamber for matches.

[Dick Dastardly]

Good advice Hellgate.

The test wasn't very scientific and maybe I was just a bit cold and shivery.  I'll be running the same test again but using sandbags.  The North Bristol Sportsmans Club has a great pistol range and it's very under used.  It's only 15 minutes from my house and the membership only runs $40.  Mostly, it's a trap club with a walk around range for hunters that like to shoot pointy sticks.

I've found that the diamond shape targets are best for my eyes.  Since I keep hitting slightly left and high at 50 yards I'll be making a slight change in my sights.  Yes, my ROAs have adjustable sights.

DD-DLoS

[Adirondack Jack]

For a light, relatively short (one one diameter long) bullet that is overstabilized, especially with a fairly forward balance point, I expect 50 yards is about it for accuracy, as this bullet WILL NOT want to "weathervane" as it drops, and will instead tend to fly exactly at the attitude it departs the bore.  That you got 4 inches at 50 yards is not at all bad, and might be improved upon with smokeless and a bit of load development.  smokeless at a "happy" pressure would almost certainly produce better consistency (the fairly wide ES I assume is due to inadequate lube for REAL BP.)

I always figured this bullet as a 25-50 yard bullet, mostly for main match use or as a fairly close in critter gitter.  it's so light it needs it's velocity, and loses that fairly soon as yardages stretch out.

Thanks for a good report.  I gotta get back to work on my shooting research as well.  (Today I built a ramp for my trailer and got my MC out.  Took a SHORT ride at 36 degrees)

[Sgt. Jake]

    Howdy  Dick myself and another pard got togather yesterday with Jack to do a little basement gunsmithing,he brought us each a bag of his Barnstomers. They are cute little devils,being I shoot gunpowder Ill have to come up with way to get some lube down the barrel. The lube grove just wont carry enough Pearl Lube ,to get er done. I was thinking of using a wonder wad. Have you tryed this,or what are your thoughts on my plan? If I was a smokeless shooter, Boy what a bullet,too bad AJ has to make em one at a whack.               Adios  Sgt. Jake

[Noz]

I shoot a 41 mag Marlin as my main match rifle. Since no one makes a bullet that will hold enough lube for shooting black I have been forced to look for lube helps. I shot a lubed wool wad under my 41 bullets. The barrel remained clean, there was a nice lube star but the wads stuck to the base of the bullets. Sometimes I would get a real cool "tracer" when the wads ignited but usually I simply got very erratic flight from the wad/bullet combination. Our match director made me stand behind him while he fired my rifle. The bullets were seeming to corkscrew down range. We're talking more of a pattern than a group. I could have added a paper wad between wool wad and bullet to try to prevent this but Walmart put 777 on sale for less than I could buy GOEX so that's the route for now.
To summarize: Wonder wad will hold enough lube and will work well as long as it does not stick to the bullet base.

[Sgt. Jake]

  Nozzle Rag    These Barnstormers dont really have a base per say .They are a hollow base so they are a skirt,my bet is knowing Dick he has tryed them with Black. I would bet the wonder wad route might work,except the hollow base is probaly large enough to ,like you pointed out stick the wad in the hollow base.I know Jack had tryed them with fiber wads ,and gave up on them.   Thanks  Sgt. Jake

[Adirondack Jack]

Sgt, Jake,

In my initial experiments I was trying to find the "practical bottom" where the 120s would shoot accurately (decent burn and group well enough) and at least with smokeless I found the wad wasn't helping me achieve the desired results.

Now with 777 I used a 1/8" walters (hard card like a nitro card) wad, and found it shot fine, and reduced the velocity some.

A wonder wad is more compressible, so it might end up getting itself stuck in the bullet base and detract from accuracy.

I think the bottom line is that the HB 120 bullet is gonna be a smokeless or sub (777 or APP) bullet so that the lube is not an issue.  I strongly recommend either the EPP (a personal favorite) or Springfield Slim's 155 as alternative light .45 bullets for the Holy Black.

FWIW any of em will feed in the toggle links using the Cowboy carrier.

[Sgt. Jake]

   Jack  Thanks  Thats the answer, a sub. powder,little or no lube required. I can live with that. I usualy always use black ,and I forget about the place the subistutes play. If we had talked more about it the other afternoon I wouldnt have even needed to ask the question. We wre all so taken by the Cowboy Carrier/ Elevator,and the way it worked,how slick it was ,I got sidetracked. The same way as if a beautiful blonde walked by,my mouth was hanging open,ready to catch flies. Thanks Jack              Adios  Sgt. Jake

[Adirondack Jack]

   Jack  Thanks  Thats the answer, a sub. powder,little or no lube required. I can live with that. I usualy always use black ,and I forget about the place the subistutes play. If we had talked more about it the other afternoon I wouldnt have even needed to ask the question. We wre all so taken by the Cowboy Carrier/ Elevator,and the way it worked,how slick it was ,I got sidetracked. The same way as if a beautiful blonde walked by,my mouth was hanging open,ready to catch flies. Thanks Jack              Adios  Sgt. Jake

I forgot yer a "all charcoal, all the time" shooter (me I like any kind, smokeless or smokey, subs or stinky) or I woulda brought ya a small jug of 777 to load the 120s with

[Sgt. Jake]

  Jack    I actualy own five or six bottles of smokeless, just so happens I have half a bottle of 777 mixed in them and if I recall 1 unopened cam of the old Black Mag ffg.,used to buy that by the case before Doc started shootin C&B s.  Thanks again                 Adios  Sgt. Jake

[Dick Dastardly]

I put a gob of PL-II in the cavity of the base and a thin wad under that to keep the powder dry.  I would have to use a smear over the top of the bullets on the chambers to get anything like satisfactory performance.  All that said, they did fly fine and I  was able to hit what I aimed at.  No change in point of impact between them and the EPP-UGs.

So, I think with the proper sub/replica powder they could prove very helpful in reaching for the absolute bottom on recoil while keeping enough PF to satisfy the requirement.  A good hit on a properly calibrated KD should prove effective.

I think that AJs Barnstormer hollow base bullet will turn out to be a swaged bullet.  Casting them with a single cavity mold won't make many pards happy.  Swaged, they could be made economically enough to put on the market.

Good luck AJ.

DD-DLoS

[Sgt. Jake]

    Jack/Dick   I just finished up loading 50 of them over 777 ffg.,now all the weather has to do is coperate,snowed again today,damn snow&ice.        Adios  Sgt. Jake

[Dick Dastardly]

I didn't vote for Algore, nobel prize global warming cook that's spending $300,000,000.00 now to sell his idea.  I just hope spring gets started around here pretty soon.  Our robins are getting confused.  I think they're sick of frozen worms.

We're all in this together.

DD-DLoS

P.S. Madison Wisconsin went TWO FEET over the previous all time record for snowfall depth. . .

[Adirondack Jack]

I didn't vote for Algore, nobel prize global warming cook that's spending $300,000,000.00 now to sell his idea.  I just hope spring gets started around here pretty soon.  Our robins are getting confused.  I think they're sick of frozen worms.

We're all in this together.

DD-DLoS

P.S. Madison Wisconsin went TWO FEET over the previous all time record for snowfall depth. . .

This time last year the ground was bare and I hurried to schedule delivery of a storage building so we could drive on frozen ground (and did that at 7AM).  This year we got probably 18 inches of snow in the back yard.  It rained all day today, and is supposed to be 50 tomorrow, but gonna freeze hard again after. Our robins are learning to eat whatever they find along the creek bank.  They've been here two weeks and it's mighty slim pickins.

I got loads to graph, a motorcycle to ride, and a trailer needs remodeling into a camper.  NONE of that is gonna happen if it is 35deg. and raining.

Meanwhile, I took advantage of the QUIET when folks went to bed to do a bit of kitchen table smithing.  Jake's rifle WHISPERS now

[Paladin UK]

Fer DD.........

P.S. Madison Wisconsin went TWO FEET over the previous all time record for snowfall depth. . .

Two years ago right here in Portsmouth(AKA Pompey) we had 2 full INCHES!!!  So jest dont start this hard time rubbish with me, Jest dont wash pard!!

Paladin (Whats lookin fer some good cover  ) UK

[Dick Dastardly]

Yup PUK, that's why you don't have central heating and I have an outside wood furnace heating plant. . .  Global warming will even all that out though.

DD-DLoS

[Paladin UK]

Fer DD.......

that's why you don't have central heating

That's a bowl of hot porridge here pard!!

Paladin (Whut dont like the cold  ) UK

[Tubac]

Gents,
I feel your pain. It's noon on the 3rd of April, and it's only 68 F!!


Tubac

[Dr. Bob]

Tubac,

Talk like that could have consequences!   Here in KC we had a steady mist & a high of 47.  'Bout 15 F below normal.      Ain't no global warming!!!!!!!!!!