Are there folks who shoot their large frame Merwin 44s in a match?

[Zip Wyatt]

I've never seen any shot but I'd like to.   

Venturino says they gum up after only one cylinder full but the guy over at the Merwin Hulbert site says that it ain't true with the modern BP and the right lube?

Zip

[Tubac]

Zip,

This is sorta maybe an answer. I've not shot my M&H in a match, BUT, I have shot four or five cylinders at a clip in both an open frame .44 Russian and a top strap model in .44/40 with no "gumming up". I use Schuetzen FFG and bore butter as lube.

Tubac

[St. George]

Folks do shoot them 'at' a Match - but it's doubtful they'd be shot as a Main Match weapon.

They're simply too damned hard to find spare parts for, to suffer the abuse of competition, and they're made of a relatively 'soft' iron that 'can' stretch.

Given that they're notoriously difficultly machined firearms - you'd want to ensure that you weren't placing undue stress and subsequent stretching of their tolerances.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Zip Wyatt]

I appreciate the replies!

Tubac - I like your brace of Merwins!

St. George - Just to clarify, real black powder shot in these guns, over numerous rounds, will stretch or fatigue the metal?  I realize these guns are 130 years old, but I just didn't think BP made the kinds of pressures that would do this unless we are talking thousands and thousands of rounds?  I do understand about the lack of replacement parts.

Let's hope a replica is just around the corner.

Zip

[Will Ketchum]

I have a good friend who used a Merwin Hulbert Pocket Army for his pocket pistol.  In on match one of his main stage guns failed and he shot the rest of the match with the MH.  He uses nothing but Goex and has never had a problem with it binding form BP fouling.  He laughed when he read what Venturino wrote.

I have a Spanish copy of a Merwin Hulbert Pocket Army in 44 Russian.  I have shot whole box through it just plinking and didn't have a problem that I recall.

Will Ketchum

[Tubac]

Zip,
Thanks, When I shoot my Merwins, I use light loads. 15 gr in the .44R and 25 gr in the .44/40.
Do you have any Merwins?

Tubac

[Zip Wyatt]

Tubac - I have a Pocket Army in 44-40 that I've never shot.  I guess I need to load real black powder and shoot this thing?  I've been threatening to load black powder for years, now is as good a time as any.

Will - it's good to know that someone uses them every once in a while.

Zip

[Four Eyed Floyd]

You'll never go back. Holy Black is the most fun, Boom Smoke and stink! 

[St. George]

The Merwin, Hulberts were always a little 'soft' - in comparison with their contemporaries.

It doesn't get better over time - and a lot of 'time' has passed since their heyday.

That they have an exceptionally convoluted mechanism, with 'very' close tolerances needed to properly function is the problem, since it's more prone than other guns to the vagaries of metallurgy.

By all means, shoot your weapon - just don't shoot it fast, and shoot deliberately.

Properly loaded, with real black powder, you should have little trouble.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[gw]

I've shot my 2nd model Pocket Army in several matches over the years, with full black powder 44-40's. They're a real handful to shoot and I'll freely admit I take my time when I do shoot it. It seems none the worse for wear after several hundred rounds and should last me the rest of my shootin' time here. 

[sportee]

I have a Spanish copy of a Merwin Hulbert Pocket Army in 44 Russian.  I have shot whole box through it just plinking and didn't have a problem that I recall.

Will Ketchum

Will, I am a Merwin collector in Canada and have been trying to collect information on the spanish copies that were made. Can you please email me. I would like to get some info and pics of your spanish Pocket Army for my records.

sportee@sasktel.net

Thanks

[litl rooster]

Will, I am a Merwin collector in Canada and have been trying to collect information on the spanish copies that were made. Can you please email me. I would like to get some info and pics of your spanish Pocket Army for my records.

sportee@sasktel.net

Thanks

obera hermosa?

[Montanian]

Orbea  y Hermanos (Orbea sounds like a last name, hermanos is brothers so family firm) as well as a later or earlier version of the same firm as apparently a partnership, Orbea y Cia, show up as manufacterers of copies of both Smith & Wesson Russians and Merwin Hulbert & Co. large frame revolvers.  At least on the Merwin, they list it by name on the guns as though they were perhaps a licensee of the company or more likely just wanted to infringe on the brand name as well as the design.  Some of these have shown up for the Cuban police when it was still a Spanish colony, pre-1898, and that makes you wonder if they weren't being provided as military, police, etc. arms throughout the Spanish empire of that time (Cuba, the Phillipines, Guam, Puerto Rico...).   Another Spanish maker, Garate c Hijo (Hijo is son) turns up occasionally on these.    The Spanish ones will often be inscribed with Merwin Hulbert but not with Hopkins & Allen Mfg., the Conn.-made Merwins generally have both companies' names inscribed although my own does not.

Mexico's described as the second largest market for Merwin Hulbert revolvers, apparently for the Rurales & Federales as the President of Mexico, Porfiro Diaz, had a presentation pair of open top Merwins (blued, engraved and inlaid, ivory grips) that are the purtiest I've ever seen-they're in a museum in Toronto.   As the Mexicans set up their own government arsenal to make the Remington Rolling Block carbines and rifles, Fabrica National DeArmas (National Arms Factory) in 1881, it makes me wonder if that factory might not have tooled up for Smiths & Merwins too as a cost-saving measure but haven't seen any actual pistols that clearly prove that wild-eyed conjecture.   But the Russians certainly produced their own Smith & Wesson Russians at their Tula Arsenal at 15 years after the last Smith & Wesson shipments to them and perhaps Merwins too.   If you could make a Smith, which was a finely made and complex revolver for the time, I'd expect you could make a Merwin too, especially with a national government's resources at hand and the need for tens of thousands of the revolvers for many years to come. 

[Montana Slim]

Hope to try my Dad's Merwin someday.

it's chambered for .44 MH...not any easy round to pick-up at the general store.

I'm wondering if .41 mag brass can be trimmed to fit and fired with a heel-based bullet.
This is just a guess.....I enjoy a good mystery.

If anyone has practical experience with that round please post some tidbits :-)

Thanks!

Slim

[Montanian]

Oddly enough there's a bit of info on this in the current Dixie Gun Catalog (page 629 in the general information-loading obsolete ammo section) and using Art Phelps measurements of original cartridges in .44 MH from UMC and Winchester:

For .44 Merwin Hulbert  start with a .44 Special brass    swage the head to .437-.440" diameter, trim to length of 1.140-1.157"   Turn rim down to .489-.500 diameter   

bullet diameter's .416-421 in the old factory loads, don't find a weight for the bullet  the .44-40 used 200 grain flat-nosed lead bullet and the .38 MH used a 145 grain round nosed lead bullet.   

The blackpowder load for the .44 MH was 29-30 grains.   Smokeless powder would likely wreck the gun as the gunsmiths have seen a lot of them where too hot of a load overexpanded the cylinder's chambers. 

There are considerably more experienced Merwin shooters on this forum, hopefully they'll see your question!

[Dalton Masterson]

My main pocket pistol is a Merwin 38. Great little gun. I use 2F Black, and 125gr. 38 bullets. I have had no problem with binding at all.
I believe Wild Ben Raymond has a full size MH, but I havent seen it. He said that he used to shoot it in matches.

DM

[RedGreen]

Hope to try my Dad's Merwin someday.

it's chambered for .44 MH...not any easy round to pick-up at the general store.

I'm wondering if .41 mag brass can be trimmed to fit and fired with a heel-based bullet.
This is just a guess.....I enjoy a good mystery.

If anyone has practical experience with that round please post some tidbits :-)

Thanks!

Slim

Just in case you haven't found this out yet. The 41 mag case will work for the 44 SW American but not for the MH 44. For the MH 44 you need 9.3x72R cases trimmed to length, then you will need a 10.4 Montenegran bullet mold(.424). Then you need a custom set of dies. It should be a very good cartridge but the cost of gearing up to shoot it is prohibitive for most.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

As it happens, I have had a pair of Frontier Model Merwin Hulberts for a few months now. It is a long story how I got them, and I will tell that story another time. I was going to wait awhile before issuing a full range report, but I thought I would make a few comments on this thread. One of my MHs needs a little bit of work, but I have shot the other one in two or three matches this year. I even shot it on the second day of the Great Nor'Easter, the New England Regional.

Here is a photo of the pair. I hasten to add that these are shooters, they are not pristine museum pieces, so their appearance may look a little bit rough.



I had to check out Mike Venturino's comments in his book Shooting Sixguns of the Old West. Sure enough he states 'With Black Powder loads its finely fitted mechanism starts to bind up after a single cylinder-full.' I greatly respect Mike, I learned a lot of what I know about shooting Black Powder cartridges from his writing, but frankly, I dunno what Mike was doing wrong. My MH runs a full match with no problem at all with my Black Powder 44 Russian loads. I also have some comments about the 'finely fitted' mechanism and the general feeling that these guns were made to super exacting tolerances. More on that later.

This is the one I have been shooting.



First, let's talk about how this gun performs with Black Powder. Some of you may be aware of the various posts I have made about Black Powder and cylinder design of various 19th Century revolvers. My basic premise is that if the cylinder pin is protected from Black Powder fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap by some sort of bushing or other device, and if the bullet carries enough soft, Black Powder compatible bullet lube, then shooting said revolver with Black Powder should be no problem and the gun should not bind up from the fouling.

Let's look for a moment at the three basic components of the MH. This photo shows them separated, the barrel assembly, cylinder, and frame. Note that this is a top strap model with the top strap a part of the barrel assembly. 




This next photo is a closeup of the massive bushing on the front of the cylinder.



Here is another view.





And this photo shows how the cylinder bushing nests in a recess in the barrel assembly.




The reason the cylinder nests that way in the barrel assembly is that when the barrel is rotated and pulled forward, the cylinder comes along with it. Like this.





But the result is, when the gun is closed up, the cylinder bushing is completely shrouded from any fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap, and furthermore, the cylinder pin is completely shrouded by the bushing. In short, there is no way that fouling from the barrel/cylinder gap is going to work its way onto the cylinder pin, and in my experience that is the main cause of binding with cartridge revolvers fired with Black Powder.




Now yes, fouling is also deposited on the cylinder pin from the breech end of the chambers, but notice the helical relief cut around the pin. Just like on a Colt C&B revolver, or a S&W Top Break, that relief cut provides relief and clearance for any fouling that found its way onto the pin.

You may also notice that there is a good coating of oil on the parts. That is Ballistol, I apply it liberally after cleaning all my Black Powder cartridge guns. That is probably another reason why I have had no problems shooting this gun in matches, because it has a nice, liberal coating of Ballistol on the parts.

Incidentally, my 44 Russian load is a case full of FFg, usually Schuetzen, I think about 19.5 grains, under a Mav-Dutchman bullet lubed with SPG. A very pleasant, mild shooting load, no where near as powerful as my normal 45 Colt or 44-40 loads.

*************

Now, let's talk for a moment about that mystical, super high tolerance fitting of the parts. Frankly, I think that is a lot of hooey. Yes, the mechanism for opening and closing a Merwin Hulbert is unusual, and unique, but I don't think the tolerances required to make one were any tighter than the tolerances that for instance Smith and Wesson used to build their large frame Top Breaks, like a Russian or a Schofield. Today we tend to get seduced by the reputation of CNC machinery, and the close tolerances it can hold. We tend to look at any machining previous to CNC as primitive and not capable of tight tolerances. That is selling 19th Century manufacturing methods extremely short. The men who designed and built these guns were very clever guys, and through the use of extremely clever, dedicated fixturing, and very finely made machinery, they were able to hold extremely exacting tolerances. Frankly, interesting as the MH is, I do not think its machining tolerances are any tighter than what S&W was producing at the time.

*************

Shooting the Merwin Hulbert is great fun. It loads from a side loading gate, very similar to a Colt. The difference is the gate slides down, rather than pivoting, and because of its location one has to remember to load 2, skip 1, then load 3, rather than load 1, skip 1, load 4 the way you do with a Colt. But unlike a Colt, cartridge rims are not visible behind the cylinder. Just part of the design. The recoil shield has a rim around it that hides the cartridge rims. So the loading table guy has to take my word for it that there is an empty under the hammer. If I pull the hammer back, before I lower it I can usually see through the firing pin hole that there is no primer there, but usually I am just careful and the loading table guy believes me.



After firing, one unloads the gun by pushing the knob in front of the trigger guard back towards the trigger guard. This unlocks the barrel mechanism. Then one grasps the barrel, twists 90 degrees, then pulls the barrel forward. There is a ring built onto the frame which acts as an extractor, pulling the empties out of the chamber. They are all supposed to drop out, but I usually have to flick a couple off the extractor, they don't always all drop off. This part is great fun with an unloading officer who has never seen a MH, which is most of them. I have had a lot of questions about what the heck kind of pistol is that, and of course I enjoy explaining what it is.

The thing about the MH is, the idea is when the gun is opened, empty cases will fall out, but cases with bullets still in them will remain in place because the bullets will still be in the chamber. Of course, in CAS we never have a half empty gun, we always shoot them empty. But I have to say that despite how clever the MH mechanism is, a Top Break Smith is simpler to unload and reload. You pop the latch, you drop the barrel, the empties pop out and the cylinder is ready to receive more ammo. Not so with the MH, it cannot be loaded from the 'open' position because of the way that extractor ring fits over the cartridge rims. To reload, the gun must be closed again and fresh cartridges loaded through the loading gate, no differently than a Colt, except of course for the different loading sequence. Quicker than popping out empties one by one with a Colt, but not as simple as opening and reloading a Top Break Smith.

But don't get me wrong, shooting the Merwin Hulbert is great fun. I of course do not shoot it fast, I shoot it very slowly and deliberately, no different than any of my other CAS pistols. And because it is well over 100 years old it never sees anything but Black Powder when I shoot it.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Here are a few more photos illustrating the mechanism. This is the ring mounted to the frame that serves as the extractor. It is not obvious from this photo, but the ring has a rebate at the base.




This photo shows the rebate a little bit better.




This photo shows how the ring/extractor pulls the empties out by their rims when the gun is opened.





This is the rear of the cylinder. The 'extractor/ring' fits into the groove in the rear of the cylinder.





Another view of the rear of the cylinder. The ratchet teeth of the cylinder fit inside the 'extractor/ring'. The hand pushes the teeth from inside the 'extractor/ring'.

[Short Knife Johnson]

I too have shot my medium frame MH in .32 in a match.  Did it just for the heck of it.  Using only straight Goex and SPG lube it ran all day when I used it.  Just had to be careful not to load 6 into the 7 shot cylinder.  Been thinking of pairing it with my Lemon Squeezer in .38 just to make fun of the gamers.