NWMP 76 calibur

[Sgt Sourdough]

In what calibur did the NWMP chamber there 76's in ?

[Captain John Jarrett]

Pard,

  The only calibre the NWMP 76's were in was (that I am aware of) .45-75

John.

[OKDEE]

Yup! 

The 45-75 caliber was the first one introduced for the Winchester Model 1876  Centennial Rifle and the only caliber for the North West Mounted Police in Canada....., as far as we know!   

If you could read between the lines in the book by Herbert Houze, there may have been some 45-60's sprinkled in there.  Who really knows?  Lost records were commonplace.   The possible caliber change was due to the rising tide of criticism about the 45-75 excessive level of recoil, which caused Winchester to come out with the 45-60 caliber.  During that period of time, the book notes that there were some 660 carbines that were changed from the 45-75 caliber to the 45-60 caliber.  It does not note were those carbines were shipped.   Hmmmmm.

I would imagine, that our neighdors to the North, would NEVER, NEVER back off from the manley load of the 45-75! 

Anyway, that's a story, End of story!   

Oklahoma Dee

[Buck Stinson]

I don't wish to step on anyones toes here, but both the NWMP and Winchester records are very complete and do not mention ANY other caliber except the .45-75WCF.  I'm not sure where Mr. House found his information but no mention has ever been made or even implied that the .45-60 was used in carbines purchased for use by the NWMP.    Except for a few early individual  guns, all NWMP carbines are well documented by serial number and dates of shipment. 

Adios,
Buck

[Buffalo Creek Law Dog]

The NWMPolice Winchester Model 1876 was .45-75 W.C.F
Mag Cap - 8 Rounds
BBL 22 "
OAL 42"
Weight 8 1/4 lbs
Number issued  1346. To Mounted Police - 846 with 500 retained for the Militia.
Period of service 1878-1914

Source: Small Arms of the Mounted Police by R. Philips and S.J. Kirby, Printed in Canada by The Runge Press, copyright 1965

Hope this helps. 

[will52100]

Got a question for you, Buffalo Arms list the NWMP carbine as a 10 shooter, is that a type-O?  I'm lusting after one and wanted to make sure, though 8 rounds are plenty.

[Buck Stinson]

will52100,
I don't know what the mag capacity is on the reproduction carbine, but I have several original '76 carbines, including NWMP guns and they all hold 8 rounds in the magazine.

Adios,
Buck

[Buffalo Creek Law Dog]

Eight rounds is correct.

Cheers!

[OKDEE]

I don't wish to step on anyones toes here, but both the NWMP and Winchester records are very complete and do not mention ANY other caliber except the .45-75WCF.  I'm not sure where Mr. House found his information but no mention has ever been made or even implied that the .45-60 was used in carbines purchased for use by the NWMP.    Except for a few early individual  guns, all NWMP carbines are well documented by serial number and dates of shipment. 

Adios,
Buck

Hey Buck,  Your not steppin on anyones toe! LOL    I was just reading a book published by Houze and he mentioned the 45-75's carbines that were brought back in and redone in 45-60.  From there, one could stretch and say that of redone carbines, some may have moved North of the border!
No real proof as you state.  I retract all my brief story! 

Sincerely,
Oklahoma Dee

[Buck Stinson]

OKDEE,
I sent you an email regarding your new purchase.  Please keep me posted as to the outcome.  I re-read the statements Houze made and he says the guns rebarreled from .45-75 to .45-60 were all rifles, as well as two muskets and no carbines.   However, there were nearly 100 .45-60 caliber carbines in the warehouse that were returned to the factory, rebarreled to .45-75 and shipped on April 9th, 1885 as part of an NWMP order.   The serial numbers on these guns was in the 33432 to 44498 range.  In the very last shipment, dated August 31, 1885, there were five more carbines rebarreled from .45-60 to .45-75.  The serial numbers were 46249 through 46253.  In total there are 1815 .45-75 carbines of record, shipped to the NWMP.  These shipments could have started was early as Oct 1, 1877 with carbine serial number 608.  We know that the last NWMP order was shipped on August 31, 1885 and ended with serial number 46253.  I hope this has been of some interest.

Adios,
Buck

[sharps50/70]

If I'm not mestaken, Winchester did produce 1876 carbines that looked just like the NWMP guns but were for domestic sale.  They were in other calibers then the 45/75.

Rich

[Buck Stinson]

In all, there were approximately 9500 model 1876 Winchester carbines produced.  All of the carbines both commercial and the NWMP guns had long forends.  Most of the Mountie guns had the Spanish Meter rear sight but this sight could also be special ordered on commercial guns, as well.  Just because an 1876 carbine has a Spanish Meter rear sight, does not mean it is an NWMP gun.  Only the serial number can verify the guns association with the Mounties.  Carbines were available as deluxe pistol grip guns and could be ordered with a number of other special order extras.  An 1876 Winchester carbine with special features is very rare.

The carbine could also be had in any of the same calibers that were avilable for the '76 rifle.  The following stats are approximate numbers of carbines manufactured in each caliber.

.40-60...........288
.45-60.........2497
.45-75.........6814...........of this number, roughly 1815 were NWMP carbines
.50 Express......22

This table lists the number of guns that left the factory and went into the warehouse in each of these calibers.  This does not include the guns that were pulled from the warehouse and went back into the factory and changed into carbines.   I know, it's confusing.

Adios,
Buck

[Grizzly Adams]

Buck, great post!   It is interesting that more were done in 40-60 than 50 EX.  Of course, I bet that big 50 really bucks in a carbine!

[OKDEE]

Hey ho! Buck...

I find that book by Houze, " The Winchester Model 1876 Centennial Rifle" a tough read a times. But I am glad that someone did it.  To put that kind of data together had to be real tense at times.

Do you have any other suggested books on the Winchester 1876?

Oklahoma Dee

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I've seen a photo of a '76 carbine in .45-75 that had the short forestock.  I think it belonged to Allmighty Voice, the nemesis of several mounties.

[Buck Stinson]

Grizzly and OKDEE,

I've never shot a carbine in .50 Express, but I'm sure it has a recoil that you would remember.  A collector friend of mine has a real nice original .50-95 carbine with a nickel plated receiver.  He has given me first right of refusal when he decides to sell the gun.  I will definately buy it, because chances of getting a "real" one are like trying to find teeth on a chicken.  According to the existing ledgers, there were less than 25 carbines that came into the warehouse from the factory as .50-95's.   There were a few rifles in .45-75 that went back to the factory from the warehouse and changed over to .50-95.  I think there were around 70 such guns total and there may have been a few carbines in this batch also.  The serial numbers on these guns is between 2243 and 7773, so they are pretty low numbers.  Some may or may not actually letter as .50 Express.  Personally, I would never buy any '76 if it does not letter.

As far as books on the '76, there are only two that I know of, actually three if you count Art Pirkles book on the various parts.  Herb Houzes book we've already talked about and I have to agree that it is for the most part, BORING and difficult to read.  He contradicts himself in many places and for this reason, some areas are hard to digest.  The technical data is fine, but reading it once is more than enough for me.  I'm not interested in the cost of each part.  I would much rather hear about the guns history on the frontier.  The best read is Lew Yearouts book "Winchesters North West Mounted Police Carbines, and other Model 1876 Data".  Lew passed away in March of 2007, leaving behind probably the largest private collection of Winchesters in the world.  He was the first one to document NWMP guns, starting in the 1950's.   I first met him when I was about 14 years old, visited with him at all the gun shows and saw his collection a couple of times.   He was one hard man.  His passion was Winchester and Browning Brothers single shot rifles and the Winchester model 1876.  He also had over 1000 Winchester reloading tools, bullet molds and hundreds of boxes of vintage ammunition.  Most of this stuff came from old ranches here in Montana.  His book is easy to read and full of old time gun collecting stories and NWMP carbine data.  It's also a hard book to find, as it was never sold to any book stores.  Once in awhile a copy will show up on Ebay.  Lew gave me a couple of soft covers and one hardbound.  If you find one, you should buy it.

Adios,
Buck

[Buck Stinson]

Sir Charles,
I would greatly appreciate a copy of the photo you mentioned or tell me where I can find it.  According to the warehouse ledgers, there were no 1876 carbines shipped even as special order, with a short forend.  It woud be of great interest to see this photo.  Please let me know.

Adios,
Buck

[Hobie]

I can't imagine why the Canadians would complicate ammo supply with conversions to the .45-60.  Just my opinion but the .45-75 is the same load as I use in my much lighter TC Seneca .45 and I don't think it is a heavy recoiling gun.  However, the military has different views sometimes.    

Now the Canadians used BP loads in the 1876s through to 1914.  That must have been one reason they were eager to drop the 1876.  Did Imperial produce .45-75 ammo?  Smokeless loads?   Just a thought... 

[Buck Stinson]

I didn't think about Imperial, but I've never found or heard of any .45-75 being made available in smokeless.  I agree that it doesn't make any sense to think that the Canadian government would change or even consider changing from .45-75  to the .45-60 caliber.

Between 1878 and 1914, there were thirteen documented shipments of .45-75 ammunition from the Winchester factory to the Canadian government, totaling 1,310,500 rounds of ammunition.  There are nine additional Winchester shipments that do not mention quantity.  The only order ever placed for .45-75 blank cartridges was placed in 1886, with a total of 10,000 rounds.  I would guess that these were used to train horses.  There was also at least one purchase of an unknown quantity of .45-75 ammunition from the Union Metalic Cartridge Co., in 1895.  The NWMP had nothing but problems with their own manufactured .45-75 made by the Dominion Cartridge Co.  But even with these major problems, the documented quantities total 665,500 rounds between 1887 and 1914.  There are seven additional Dominion orders of unknown quantity.

It appears that they had made up their minds about sticking with the .45-75WCF.

Adios,
Buck

[Hobie]

About 2 MILLION+ rounds of .45-75 ammo for the number of carbines they bought is astonishing at first glance.  BUT, that is only about 1250 rounds for each of the 1611 carbines.  Since only some 939 guns still remained in 1914, I guess some guns were shot more than others and there was likely some ammo remaining in stock in 1914.  Those guns were carried everywhere though.  I wonder, how many were lost when canoes overturned or through other misadventures?  How many simply broke and couldn't be repaired (and what exactly broke)?

What exactly were the problems with the Dominion Cartridge Co. ammo?