New guy says howdy, asks questions & leaves tidbit...

[Button]

Howdy fellas.
I've been skulking around in here for a year, with an eye to quietly slipping over to The Darkside. Almost ready. Time for 1st post. I notice many of you have highly developed senses of humour.    I will try to maintain the high standard here in the Dark Halls. Introduction first, then a few questions, followed by some answers to questions that haven't been asked yet! 
    Been into CAS for 6 yrs. In the middle of changing my SASS alias, so that can wait. Formerly Highwall Drifter # 68975. I am Match Director for my gang, plus I write ALL the stages for us as well as a fledgling gang further downriver.  I work hard at keepin' it real & many stages are right out of the history books. I believe keeping it interesting, fun & funny is what it's all about.
    I've just quit smoking after approx 30 successful yrs at it, but still crave a huge cloud of smoke around me. I am hopefull FFF & FF will provide.
     The Hardware: A pair of 5.5" Colts in .45 Colt ; Marlin '94 in .44 mag ; Euroarms '73 Short Rifle in 44 WCF ; Baikal 12 gauge hammerless ; TOZ 12 gauge mule-ear ; Uberti 30" Highwall in 45-70. All ammunition is manufactured on a Lee Pro 1000; 45-70 on a Lee single stage. My plan is to use the original Dupont in everything but the hammerless Baikal. I see D. Dastardly uses the Pro 1000 & BP. I'll be jumpin up onto that bandwagon pdq.
    The questions:
            I have the .44 Mag data posts, but I didn't see anything for .44 Special in a .44 mag rifle. I just wonder if anyone knows the Lee disc(s) that will fill a .44 Spl case under a 200 gr tip. (Mr Dastardly?) I will run .44 special cases packed full of BP thru the Marlin. It has the Micro-Groove bbl., though. Is this going to be a problem with BP? 2F or 3F? I THINK I'm beginning to understand when to use 2F & when to use 3F. I see many use 3F in .44 mag. There must be a reason.
    2F or 3F in the pistols? (45 Colt & 200 gr). I've read alot about the blowback & will live with it. May neck size & anneal. Will see.
    Re: annealing, why quench at all? Just lettin' em cool at their own speed seems harmless.
    Btw, I don't lube my 44-40 cases & they work just fine in the Pro 1000, albeit one at a time. Although, since I tumble a 2nd time with different corn media that has liquid Turtle Wax in it to polish the brass, perhaps this is providing enough lube. I dunno, I've never done it any other way. I have had some devilish trouble with the bullet collapsing back into the case, though. After 3-5 rnds of 44-40 go down the spout of the '73, everything comes to a sudden halt when a bullet disappears inside a case.    But it's an intermittent problem. It's quite an impact, having the other 7-5 cartridges slam into the brass lifter. I've lessened the flare & maxed out the crimp, to no avail. Next up is to use the Lee FCD. I reckon filling the case with Dupont will help the situation also, as the bullet will sit on top of the powder. The worst that can happen is they will get a little extra compression by the time they get into the chamber. Right?
    I absolutely fell for a photo of the  '85 Highwall at first sight, not even knowing who was responsible for it, or what it was intended for.    After learning the story of it, the desire became feverish and all-consuming until I acquired a Uberti, originals being far too sought after for me to compete at owning one. Try as I might, I could never get anything bigger than 450 gr to work in it. FINALLY I checked the twist rate. It's UNBELIEVEABLY slow. 1 in 30" or something, I think. I couldn't believe someone would manufacture a rifle with a twist that slow. It works GREAT with 405 gr tips, out to 300 yds, but bigger bullets won't stabilize. Because of the crescent butt, you wouldn't want to use it as a 1000 yd gun anyway. But it would have been nice to know this going in, by checking the twist & diameter right off the bat. 
    I wouldn't kick a '74 Sharps out my bunk for eating crackers, though  .
    We're thinking of nominating a guy up here for a Regulator Badge. Anybody know what SASS looks for in a nomination & if they give them out easily?
    Exactly how would one reduce the tolerances on a pistol to .008? I see it mentioned all the time, but never how it's done.
    Sheesh, what a windbag for a 1st post! 
    Button, out.

[Doctor Bill]

Well, let's see:

If you are interested in economy, FFg powder will work for all the firearms you have.  I use it in 0.45 Colt, 45-120, 12-gauge and 44 Russian.  You can get faster velocities in 45 Colt by going to FFFg powder but the rounds using 250 grain bullets and FFg have more than enough energy for the knockdowns.

Going black may help with the problems you are having with the 44-40 rounds in your 73'.  Since the bullet will be sitting on top of a case full of powder, I would think that there would be less chance of it trying to hide in the brass once you start shooting.

Use plenty of grease!  I use the "Big Lube" rounds that Mr Dastardly sells molds for and have had very good luck for several years.

I don't have the load data for 0.44 mag but in general, you use enough powder to get about 1/16 inch compression (a little "crunch" when you seat the bullet) and shoot it in anything that it will go in.  I use the same 0.45 rounds in both my pistols and my 92' rifle without any trouble.

Doctor Bill

[Button]

Thank's Doc.
3F costs more. Didn't know that.
Button

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I'm sur Dr.Bill meant that one only has to order & stock one type of powder.  It's cheaper to order (GOEX) by the 25 pound bulk pack.

[Wills Point Pete]

 Welcome aboard, Button. If fffg cost more than ffg you should buy elsewhere. Still, I do almost all my cartridge loading with ffg, just to keep my logistics easy.
 
I have switched over to Graf and Sons Black Powder, it is a higher quality than most, in my opinion, it being Schuetzen Powder. My guns shoot cleaner with it and it's cheaper than GOEX. There hasn't been DuPont made since Moby Dick was a minnow.

Some modern revolvers have a barrel cylinder gap somewhat smaller than .008.  It doesn't take many swipes with a fine file on the base of the barrel to increase the gap. Don't do nothin' until you test the gun with your preferred loads. My guns shoot fine with real black with no modifications, as long as I use enough lube. Nor do my guns drip grease.

The folks that use fffg instead of ffg in a particular cartridge do so for the slightly higher velocity. In our game it won't matter until you get to the smaller bores like the .32s. Even with those it won't matter much. Pretty much if you can't take a knockdown target with ffg it probably wouldn't fall to triple fg. Of course when my knockdowns don't fall it is my shooting, not my loads.

The blowback from the .45 Colt doesn't bother revolvers much, it seems to be a problem with rifles. You will solve much of the blowback problem by using a thinner case than the thick ones like Starline or Hornady.  Get you some Top Brass or unplated Remingtons. The Starlines and Hornadys are great cases for those who like to load a casefull of H110 or LilGun and swat dinosaurs with their .45 Colt Magnums. I have a 24 inch '92 clone. With a full load it equals the old Remington 300 grain .45-70 load at 1800 fps. Not a load many people will shoot long strings with that crescent steel buttplate. But for BP the thinner cases work well.

You will not have the same trouble with your .44 WCF bullets telescoping on you as long as you use enough black powder. We usually only compress our powder enough to where there is no airspace. Compress yours until the bullet can't telescope on you. Back before anyone ever heard of cartridge collection we used to shoot some of it and break some of it down. We were always finding old stuff in falling down bunkhouses and barns. You simply cannot compress black powder too much. I have pulled bullets and had to dig the black powder out, it being packed solid all the way to the primer. I've pulled other bullets and had the powder pour out with just a couple raps on a hard surface. It all shot if we could find a shootin' iron to fit it. I'm pretty sure that a modern cartridge collector would faint if he knew what we kids did in the late '50s and early '60s.

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Button, and welcome!

The Darkside is the friendly side.  Good place to hang out.  We have more fun and less worries.

When you are loading Genuine Powder, don't leave an air space.  I load 44 Spl and 44 Magnums.  The 44 Spl brass is 1/8" shorter than 44 magnum, so put 1/8" less powder in it and compress it the same.  I like the way the Mav Dutchman bullet works in both.  That same bullet was originally designed for the 44-40 otherwise known as 44WCF.  Works great in that brass too.

Come cleanup time, keep things simple.  On the Darkside, less is more.  Less fuss, more fun.  I like to give my bores a spritz of Moosemilk (1 part Ballistol and 10 parts water) and pull the boresnake thru.  Presto pronto, I'm done.

Take a good long look at the "Dark Arts" child board for a LOT of good information.  There's so much stuff there that the Marshall could distill it down into a book.

Glad you're here.

DD-DLoS

[Pony Racer]

Welcome to the Darkside!

The stink, boom, fire and smoke make you one with the west and brings you great joy!!

PR

[Forty Rod]

I sent you a personal message, Button.  Welcome aboard.

[Delmonico]

I seen you left a tidbit and I thought is was something to eat.   Welcome.

[Noz]

I don't see that anyone has answered your annealing question. Copper does not work the same as ferrous metals. Copper heated and allowed to cool slowly hardens whereas copper heated and quenched will be softer which is what you are trying to accomplish.

[Button]

Thank's Nozzle Rag.
That's kinda important. Managed to get thru skool with zero chemistry.
All I'm lookin' for now is if anyone has run BP thru a Marlin Micro-Groove Bbl & the poop on Regulator badges.
I used the term "Dupont" to be period-correct, as back in the day, that was all you could get. Gunpowder was referred to as Dupont: "lend me some Dupont 'till payday, pard?" & coffee was Arbuckles. I read Dictionary Of The Old West cover to cover. Wonderful book with many interesting anecdotes. Much more than just a dictionary.

[Noz]

My main match rifle is an 1894 Marlin FG. That's a 41 mag with a microgroove barrel.
The numbers of black powder compatible bullets for 41s is O. I use a custom bullet from Mountain Molds but when I had it made I had never heard of "cowboy" shooting so it does not carry enough lube to allow it to shoot all day with True Black. About 20-30 shots and a fouling ring appears at about 16" down the barrel requiring cleaning or the accuracy goes away. I tried lubed wads and that works except the wads tend to stick to the base of the bullet and cause some dramatic accuracy problems. I settled on using either APP or 777 because of the lack of fouling they produce. Most match days are 5-6 stages and I can and do shoot them with no thought given to cleaning the rifle.
Look at the various bullets made for BP and buy accordingly, either molds or commercial bullets and don't worry about the micro groove barrel.

[Button]

Thank's again Nozzle Rag, you've turned into a really handy guy to know. I'm good to go with a '94 & Micro-Groove bbl. Big Lube boolit & a rinse at lunch should be fine for matches.
Button, out.

[Dick Dastardly]

Ho Noz,

How close is the Big Lube™ 38-40 bullet that drops at .402" to the .41 Mag?  If it were cast fairly soft it might bump up and fill the tube.  If you'd like to try some, send me your particulars and I'll send you a handful.  I think I've got some that are fairly soft.

DD-DLoS

[Noz]

I doubt it DD. I size to .411 for my rifle.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy, Button!  Welcome to the campfire.

A lot has been covered already, but you did ask a lot!    I won't even add to many of the previous posters, as I would simply be repeating and agreeing with what is already there.

I can't figure WHY you get charged more for 3f.    I will add this:  I use 3f for nearly everything.  I've even used it for12 ga. &  45-70, but I've settled on Goex Cartridge for that now.  The added power/velocity from using 3f IMHO helps seal the chambers in my rifles better.  I also use the heavier 250 gr. (BigLube, by the way - with "tons'O'lube") and doing this AND using Winchester brass, with the most amount of powder possible helps minimize blowback in all my guns - which are 45 Colt.  Winchester seems to be considered in the industry (I talked to 3 different tech-reps and they all agreed) as using the softest brass alloy, with Starline being both the heaviest and/or thickest.  Starline generally makes their cases to what could be considered Military standards and since it is thicker, with a slightly thicker web, will hold slightly less powder, because the case volume is less - so you will also get slightly higher pressures using Starline - AND Military cases.  (Not that there are tons of CAS suitable Military surplus brass floating around, mind you.  )

I have no experience with the Micro-Groove Marlins (other than my Golden 39A Mountie) but I've heard enough from others to say you should have no noticeable problems - AS LONG as you have enough lube.  (see: www.biglube.com )

I've no idea about Regulator status.

Now here is my OPINION.    I think your Turtle Wax IS giving you enough "slick'em" so you don't have to lube your cases.  I also think it's causing your problem of letting the bullets slide back into the case.  If it's that slick, you may not be getting enough "grip" on your bullets.  This can also effect your pressure levels, (not enough) but I suspect you'd have to have some pretty sensitive test equipment to find out.  Filling up your cases with BP so the bullet sits on the powder (after compression) will probably solve the problem, but not the right way.  I'd recommend actual case polishing solution as sold by Midway, Dillon, Lyman, Brasso or a host of others.  (I've used Dillon, Brasso and Midway: all have worked fine, I got the most for the lea$t from Midway.)  Another option is the ceramic tumbling media also available from Mr. Dastardly.  (see: BigLube)

Nice choice on that Highwall!  I have a Sharps, but I like the 1885s even more - but I HAVE heard that for extensive shooting, because of their lighter "build" they can wear ya down.   The shape of the buttplate MAY have something to do with it, BUT ... many modern shooters try to shoulder their guns with Crescent buttplates just like they do with the shotgun or Carbine styles.  That Crescent is supposed to ride over the shoulder joint, NOT in the "pocket" that we're more used to.  And that can affect your shoulder (joint) for lengthy shooting.  Just stay away from the prone position - or get a pad and position it so it hangs farther over the shoulder joint.  It kinda goes agin' the grain of true LONG range shooting, but with that twist rate, you might try some 325-350 grain bullets.   'Specially if yer not gonna shoot much over 400-500 yds.  (Mid Range)

Can't say 'bout annealing either.  My Winchester cases are up to 7-9 loadings now and aren't showing signs of distress.  Yet.    For 45-70 the neck-sizing should do what you need, but I thing most/many BPCR shooters DO anneal their cases.  But they're more serious than many of us are.  I'm basically a big bore plinker.  SOME would leave off the word "plinker." 

There.  Others will add to this.  Your mileage may vary.  Always shake BreakFree before use.  Post no Bills.  Don't drink and drive.  Nuke the whales.  Stay out of the pool for at least a half hour after consuming food.  Brush after eating.  Live and learn - or ya don't live long. (Lazarus Long -Time Enough for Love )  Chocolate IS a food group.  Ride to the sound of gunfire.  Illigitimati Non Carborundum.  Have a nice day.  NCOWS - The Few, The Proud, The Period Correct.



Jeff  "Steel Horse Bailey"
NCOWS #1919 for Life, SASS Life #27463, NRA Life, GAF, SBSS, *Warthog*

[Noz]

Steel Horse Bailey, My favorite writing from the author you've quoted above is TANSTAAFL(There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch). The motto of the Lunar Republic in "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress". Had bumper stickers made at one time.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Nozzle Rag - when my cell phone (which uses ONLY pre-1900 electrons, of course  ) powers up, I programmed TANSTAAFL as my "greeting."

Woody is my personal hero - mostly.

check this >>>> http://www.heinleinsociety.org/index.htm

[Button]

 Thank's a bunch, Steel Horse Bailey. I was already a fan from reading your previous posts over the past year, but if your idea with the 44-40 cases proves correct, I'll be indebted large. Name your pleasure. I'm not a whiskey drinker, but I don't mind payin' for it. Never occured to me that the inside of the casemouth might be slippery. I thought I had a crimp problem, which made no sense as I can crimp with the best of 'em! I can see you're more than a pretty face 'round here.
    As for the crescent butt on the Highwall, I taped two gel shoeliners together, trimmed to size, & I secretly slip into the porta potty & tape it to my shoulder under my shirt. Please don't tell anyone.  I went prone my first year with the rifle & no pad at Heluva Rukus & nearly spit up my lunch from the sharp shock. Found a better way to ride it.
    I won't be able to test the '73 with the improved 44-40's for a month yet, but I'll PM you with the results & a cigar. We're up to our zippers in snow here, literally.
    What a great spot this is. Everybody's "payin' it forward".  (ifollowedthelink)
    There's a few others in here I look forward to tanglin' with in the future & mebbe keep some puncher from bloodyin' his head on the anvil.
    Regards,
    Button

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Thanks, Button!

You shouldn't have any issues with your '73 with the recoil going to the joint.  As I mentioned, I shoot Full-power loads and both my '66 and '92 have crescent buttplates, with no effect whatsoever - only from the Big Boy would I expect any discomfort - and your gel insoles have prob'ly solved that! 

if you're crimping as much as the die will allow, I don't think the crimp itself is the problem.  The only other thing I could possibly think could cause any problem would be the mag spring, and THAT I highly doubt.  A good 'smith, Nate Kiowa Jones (Steve Young >> www.stevesgunz.com ) told me that the mag spring only needs to be about the length of two cartridges longer  than the length of the magazine itself for good pressure, but when I measured my springs, I found them to be only a bit longer than that, so I doubt that's the problem.

If it (44-40 case tumbling) works, don't bother with the cee-gar or shot'O'whisky - make it a Pepsi on the rocks.   I'm not agin' the hard stuff, (NCOWS National Shoot and 'shine  - for them whut remember) I just prefer the Pepsi.  Or Coka-Cola-la-la. 

Glad ta have ya join in on the fun!

SHB