Attn Larson et al: The "Short Stop" '66-73 carrier UPDATE 3/18

[Adirondack Jack]

Update 3/18/08, We're into version 2.2 of the NEW carrier.  Hap just keeps bringing this thing closer and closer to the design concept, and it keeps getting better and better. See my updated pics on page two, with the new spring, and more pice of the revised mechanism.  It's coming along.  Soon, very soon

Just got word this evening from "The Smith Shop".  Hap has completed the engineering on the "Adirondack Jack's Short Stop" carrier.  Designed for use with .44 Russian and Cowboy .45 Special cartridges in '66 and '73 rifles.

Here's a quote from Hap " I loaded the tube with 12 rounds of .44 Russian 3 times and pumped them through as fast as I could lever it.  No hiccups at all. ..."  (he goes on to say this was live fire.  No issues at all)

It's gonna take a little bit to get a batch of these made up, but his prototype is finalized and works like a charm.  I'm astounded that he translated my sketch to metal with 100% success in the very first prototype!!!!

The technical "poop" is as follows.  Instead of the traditional flat spring "brute force" method of holding back the cartridge to prevent the carrier from letting in two, the "Short Stop" is a pivoting dog clutch that pivots at the rear, so that when engaged, it provides a positive mechanical stop, blocking off the carrier passage at the rear of the cartridge, and when the bolt comes forward, it pivots to allow the bolt to pass.  A  flat spring then returns the stop to the passage as the bolt it withdrawn, in readiness for the next cartridge.  The spring ONLY flips the dog into the passage, and therefore can be relatively weak, so as not to add a "bump" to the lever cycle.  The dog itself is a pivoting lever held in a positively locked position by  pressure on the cartridges applied by the magazine tube spring.

I designed it almost literally in my sleep one night last week, not sleeping well... (I know, bragging, etc, but for a non-engineer, a behavioral science major at that, it's a big deal) and Hap translated my sketch and description perfectly.

It may take a little while to get a batch made, but this is a reality.  .44 Russian AND Cowboy .45 Special will be useable with complete confidence in .44 and .45 toggle links respectively.

Hap reports that even with the carrier on the bench nose up, he could not force a cartridge past the stop.  He beat on it with a drift and hammer and only drove the bullet back into the case.  The stop held with no failure of the mechanism, and the cartridge did not slip the stop.

I gotta tell ya, this is a design that means business.  "Shoot for fun" types and gamers alike will enjoy this

"Some minor gunsmithing required" means this.  All rifles will need a slot cut into the side of the bolt. The cartridge stop is physically too wide to disappear fully into the thin sidewall of the carrier and still retain the strength for absolutely positive action and long life.  In order to accomodate it, a slot was needed.  We hoped for a complete drop-in part, but opted for absolutely positive action that required a little beefier dog.  This is not rocket science, and any reasonably competent smith will be able to follow Hap's instructions (some shooters may opt to "kitchen table" it as well).  In most cases the carrier will drop right in once the bolt is slotted.  The carrier itself will start life as a stock replacement part and be modified to accept the Short Stop mechanism.  So aside from making the cut in the side of the bolt, this is no different than replacing the stock carrier.  SOME early rifles may have narrow receivers and require a little lapping of the carrier sides, as with any aftermarket '73 carrier.  Again, not rocket science.

Your "long cartridge" carrier will be able to go right back in if desired, simply by swapping the original carrier back in. The bolt cut is of no consequence in a '66/73 rifle, as the operating pressures are not sufficient to make it an issue.


side view of the mechanism


Installed in a .44 rifle, rendering it a .44 Russian rifle.  Note the "dog" behind the case head.


Note the Short Stop is partially pivoted in this photo as the incoming cartridge feeds past it.

The carriers will be sold through both cowboy45special.com and thesmithshop..com.   As soon as I have a little better handle on an estimated production schedule and pricing, I'll be starting a "reserve me a carrier" list.  Keep an eye out on Cowboy45special.com

[Deadeye Dick]

Hey AJ, Good explanation and excellent pic's too. Way to go.
Thanks,\\
Deadeye Dick

[Dick Dastardly]

I can see real marketing potential here because it allows for more efficient cartridges with less recoil and great downrange performance.  I  think toggle link pards will be snapping this one up.  I'll be watchin' for it on yer web site.

DD-DLoS

[Sgt. Jake]

  Jack  That is a great idea,and Hap really cranked it out fast.It is a wish granted to all of the less that 1.600 cartridge shooters.  Thanks for your sheparding.     Sgt. Jake

[Driftwood Johnson]

Hey AJ

I'm a little bit confused. Don't you mean the 44 Russian will fit into a rifle chambered for 44 Special? The 44-40 chamber shape is wrong for a 44 Russian cartridge.

[Adirondack Jack]

Hey AJ

I'm a little bit confused. Don't you mean the 44 Russian will fit into a rifle chambered for 44 Special? The 44-40 chamber shape is wrong for a 44 Russian cartridge.

You are correct Driftwood.  I wasn't even thinking about that.  Hap mentioned HIS PERSONAL '73 is chambered in .44-40, so that was the gun used to prototype the carrier.  Now that you mention it, he did say his .44 russian brass came back needing a good resizing   My attention was focused on the carrier's performance, and it's no secret my interest is in .45s

[Dusty Morningwood]

Well, I gotta get me one of these for my .44 Spl. 66.  Just had the carrier for my Henry modified to handle all the straight .44s, but will shoot Russian mostly and Spl. when necessary.

[Dr. Bob]

So, where can you get a 66 in 44 special??

[Marshal Tac]

  I just picked up a PERFECT candidate rifle for this conversion!!! (a '73 saddle ring carbine with a NICKLE finish and beautiful wood!) I CAN'T WAIT TO GET MY HANDS ON ONE!!!  Thanks AJ...

[Hell-Er High Water]

Dr. Bob,

Cimarron lists the M'66 rifle, short rifle and carbine as all being available in 44 Special.

Now, if they are in stock or not is another matter.  You'll have to check on that.

HHW

[Hoof Hearted]

AJ

If I understood you correctly you are starting a WANT ONE list

Please put me down for two

Here's my contact info:

buckoff@alltel.net

Thanks!

[Adirondack Jack]

I hadn't started a list yet, but I will now.

Anybody wanting to reserve a carrier from the first production run of '66'73 carriers please email info@cowboy45special.com (subject:  reserve my carrier) with your alias, GIVEN NAME, and how many ya think ya want.

I have no pricing available yet, nor do I have a firm date for delivery, so I won't be asking for a deposit.  Your name on this list will put you "in line", and you will be contacted  and offered the carrier when it becomes available.  Carriers not spoken for will be offered to the general public......

[Adirondack Jack]

UPDATE:

After Hap sent me the pics the other day, we discussed the prototype and kicked around some issues.

Though the prototype worked very well, we thought about some ways to make it even better before we "freeze" the design for production.

  He figured out how to streamline the "dog" to minimize the modification of the rifle bolt down to a very bare minimum (on the order of a  .030 shoulder transition ramp that anybody ought to be able to do with a few licks of a file), compared to a substantial slot requiring a smith's skill as in his first go, a substantial reduction in "intrusiveness" in this conversion.  To do that, he also re-designed the "dog engaged limit" aspect of the dog, so that it is very positive and yet much more streamlined.  This updated version is closer to my original design concept, while still addressing the real world issues in terms of robust construction and wear resistance.

This is gonna be a VERY slick little mechanism that promises to be almost impossible to feel when operating the gun, yet work very positively and hold up very well.

I can dream this stuff up, but it takes a talented engineer to translate artistic concept to working metal example.




Hap is a danged genius.

Pricing and scheduling should be coming soon now.

[Sgt. Jake]

   Jack   Man thats some slick redo on the dog clutch,Haps the man. I can see why the change,a few licks with a file verses machining the bolt.  I cant wait ,put me on the list of folks that Want One.  I fear the list will be LONG.    Adios  Sgt. Jake

[Dusty Morningwood]

Well AJ, I sent an emule reserving one for my 66.  What a slick little gizmo.  Is it possible to set up a system to have our original carriers modified or send them in for a "credit" in the new one?

[Adirondack Jack]

Well AJ, I sent an emule reserving one for my 66.  What a slick little gizmo.  Is it possible to set up a system to have our original carriers modified or send them in for a "credit" in the new one?

Technically?  Yes, I am sure it is possible.  Would it be practical? Probably not. We'll start with brand new stuff, and won't have issues with who belongs to what.

[Dick Dastardly]

There would be enuf differences in existing carriers that any real savings would be wasted in the extra setup time for each different one.  The Italians aren't known for keeping things to spec.

The only way this can be done at a reasonable price is from new stock.

At least, that's my take on it.

DD-DLoS

P.S.  AJ, I'm goin' to get to shoot the test on your hollow base bullets this weekend.  Robins are back, snow's meltin' and I can get to the gun club range finally.

[Adirondack Jack]

I'm waitin on yer comments  on the HB bullet DD.  I'd purely love to get to the range, or even the woods range, but snow is far from gone and I've got a nasty cold or flu or some danged thing, so I ain't gonna be slogging in knee deep snow.
Robins are back here too.  About 15 of em found our dwarf crabapple tree and cleaned it the other day.  Pretty tough for them to eat when there's 18 inches of snow on the ground.  Must be they work the creek banks and such.

[Adirondack Jack]

The latest from Hap is in.  Last week he revised the profile on the "dog", and improved the "dog full engaged limit stop" by using a second cross pin to create a very cool mechanism much like the links used in the rear end of "monoshock" motorcycles. VERY COOL stuff.

Once again, I gave Hap some feedback, hoping he'd come up with a VERY LIGHT return spring, particularly, I wanted a music wire spring that could be "tuned" for either "gamer light" or "BP dirty" applications.

Hap did not dissappoint.  here's some pics of the latest massaging of the prototype.


the spring is now a music wire that Hap reports is a positive acting spring that is light enough that one cannot feel the latch working as the bolt is operating.  He says he ran 30 or so rounds through his rifle today, slick as a whistle.



This pic shows the relief filed into the side of the bolt.  Hap says it's about .030 deep, and myestimation is most will find that although the instructions will reccommend a gunsmith do the work, it ought to be within the reach of many amateurs to do.  Not a big deal, IMHO.

I'm told to expect production scheduling and pricing fairly soon.  hap's cooking this one on the front burner, pards.  I'm liking the way the design is coming together.

[Montana Slim]

Looks nice......Reminds me of the cartridge stop used on a number of tube-magazine-fed shotguns 

Slim