Shotgun wads

[Noz]

I'm still not getting the pattern I would like out of my Remington Spartan 20 ga. with Modified chokes. I load Magtechs with the Circle Fly oversized wads. In addition to the standard wads I have cut the shotcups off of Winchester AA white wads and put them over the fiber wad.
I know that the Winchester Red Wad was a favorite of the blackpowder shooters and has been replaced, I think, by a Claybuster Wad. I have not seen any reference to a 20ga wad?
Any suggestions? Has anyone tried the Downrange wads?

[Dick Dastardly]

I'd start with the powder charge.  What are you using?  If it's to high it may be blowing the pattern open.  If that happens, it won't be uniform.

Also, try some Ballistic Products buffer sifted into the shot.  I've found that Lage Uniwads without the red insert seem helpful.

I'll watch this thread and see if I can be more helpful.

DD-DLoS

[Noz]

4cc of Pyrodex RS and 4.3 of shot so not too hot.

Do you have a source for the wad and filler?

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Noz,

I've been looking for a source for the Lage wads, but it seems that they may be out of business.  If that's the case, Ballistic Products has some good shot cups in their catalog.  BP is also where I get the buffer.

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/

I've dealt with them for many years and they are very reliable.  Also, some of their stuff comes from Circle Fly.  ie. overpowder cards.

http://www.circlefly.com/

I'm also looking into using kraft paper coin wrappers.  I'm thinkn' the Dime size might work in the 20ga. . .

DD-DLoS

[Singing Bear]

4cc of Pyrodex RS and 4.3 of shot so not too hot.

Do you have a source for the wad and filler?

Here's something to think about.  A lot of BP shooters use a "square" load of 4.3 cc of BP and 4.3 cc of shot for 12 ga.  If you're using 4 cc of powder, it may still be to "hot" for 20 ga.  You could try testing some reduced loads and see how they pattern.   Just kinda crossed my mind when you mentioned that you're loading 20 ga.     

[Noz]

I found the buffer at MidWay  They also have a Remington wad I think I'll try. It has a long shot cup and a short cushion area.
Do I recall that the forcing cones are too long on the newer guns(more for plastic wads) to shoot well with the traditional fiber and paper wads?

Bear, My load book lists a 70gr load of FFg as being correct for a 20 ga. 4cc is way under that. I went up to that because the 3.7cc dipper was not producing a good pattern either.

[Singing Bear]

Bear, My load book lists a 70gr load of FFg as being correct for a 20 ga. 4cc is way under that. I went up to that because the 3.7cc dipper was not producing a good pattern either.

Okay, I gotcha.      Dang, it's been so long, I forget what the "proper" loads are for BP shotshells.  I do know I first started with an equivalent of 120 grs. of 2f, but with Pyrodex.  We had fun in those younger and stupider days.  I've come to know a lot better since then.   

[Dick Dastardly]

Let's zoom out and look at the bigger picture here.  Noz, did that shotgun pattern well with factory ammo before.  I need to know what you are comparing your black powder loads to.  Some scatterguns are just plain ornery, but then when you find just the right load, they get religeon.

If the pattern is uneven, something is making it happen.  Normally 7/8 oz of fineshot will have a predictable distribution with pattern size being determined by the choke.  I'm thinkn' something is going on that might cause uneven distribution.  Usually, that's a chunk of wad, clumping shot, gas leaking around the shot column or sum such.

I hate to recommend that you compare to heathen fad smokeyless factory loads, but we need a benchmark here.

DD-DLoS

[Wills Point Pete]

 Well, bear in mind that I shoot a 12. Still I've done a little work with patterns. My shotgun is choked Imp. Cyl/Mod.
It has the "modern" bore and forcing cones. If I shoot the fiber wads in the Mag Tech brass shells I must go with a shot dipper some twenty percent bigger than the powder dipper before patterns start to work, I finally ended up with a shot dipper some thirty percent bigger than the powder dipper. Then my double was shooting Cyl/Imp. Cyl. There was still some unevenness.
Switching to a Winchester Red wad over a one eighth inch overpowder wad solved my problem. Once my shot charge went above an ounce and an eighth my patterns became quite easy to control. Using a shot dipper the same size as the powder dipper gave patterns just a little more open than advertised. Going to an ounce and three eighths and a two and three quarter dram powder dipper my shotgun shoots a Mod/Imp. Mod.
This is with real black in FFG.
I do believe that a one eighth inch nitro wad over the powder is required, the plain plastic wad will not compress the powder well enough alone, nor will the plastic wad be big enough to work on the Mag Tech shells. I must confess, though, I did not try just the plastic wad, I loaded it and it didn't feel right. I couldn't get the plain plastic wad to stay nice and tight over the powder. 

[Noz]

DD, This was my shotgun in my "modern" days as well as the plastic wad and plastic shell with BP days. I never had a KD takedown problem until I went to the Magtechs.  The Magtechs certainly have enough room for me to go up in shot charge but since I'm using a full ounce now it seems to be a waste. My smokeless loads were 7/8 and worked well.
My obvious assumption is that I have an incompatibility between the shotgun and the "old" style wad column.
I'll try the grex and the new wads in the Magtechs and see what they do.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Let me add this: utilizing any buffer can be potentially hazardous. Why? Pressures if not loaded right as the buffer can act as an obstruction. Also, I am not 100% sure but does any CAS organization permit the usage of buffers in shot? 

Here's a pointer:  http://www.ballisticproducts.com/bpi/articleindex/articles/buffer/buffer_page1.htm

[Noz]

Kid, Here's my thinking. The buffer adds a minimal amount of mass to the shot charge. Probably more variation in my dipping than the buffer would add. The buffer is enclosed in a sleeve, cup, or wad so is not acted upon seperately but as a unit with the shot charge. The end result being a slightly heavier shot charge.
The only SASS regulation I can find on shotgun charges is no steel and #4 and larger shot. If I can add chalk, feathers, ribbons, or mylar sparkles I would think I could add grex.
I expect the wads and grex to be in the mail today. If so I'll load some for a Saturday shoot and post the results.
I will drop back a bit more on the powder charge. My thinking here is the charge I'm using,4cc, was determined as a good charge with plastic shells and true black. Since I am using Pyrodex(economics) it should be up to 10% stronger than the Black, so I can drop back .3cc to 3.7 and still be in the energy range of the original black powder charge.
OOOOO, the wads came in and they are "stitched" wads. The front end of the petals have little tabs holding them together. Out of a plastic shell, I'd say they ought to shoot like a rifle.

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Noz,

Now, you have the dirty little secret of how Morgan Daniels takes out the KDs with his wide bore scattergun.  He says they hit like a slug.  Put an overpowder card under 'em and load 'em up.

DD-DLoS

[Noz]

Circumstances finally allowed me to get to a "pattern board" with my experimental loads.
Firstly, I was extremely pleased with the patterns thrown by the SPR220 20 ga. With the modified and improved chokes in, the patterns were smooth, even and almost perfectly round. Both loads shot to the point of aim. All cases used were Magtech brass.
Loads were, #1. 3.7 grs of Pyrodex RS under an 18 ga nitro card, 1/2" 18 ga fiber cushionwad, 4cc of reclaimed shot and an overshot wad glued in place with water glass.
Load #2. 3.7 grs of Pyrodex under an 18 ga nitro wad, a Remington power piston wad and 4 ccs of reclaimed shot with approximately 1.5 cc of buffer. It also was topped with an overshot card and water glass.
Six shots of #1 at 12 yards produced an 18" (area of maximum density) pattern that would make any quail hunter proud.
Six shots of #2 at 12 yards produced an 11" (again, area of maximum density) pattern that also was round and of great goodness.
#1 did not knock any pieces out of the board while #2 did. Density of pattern being the destructive factor.
The only unexpected result seen was shooting into a 20-30 mph headwind, I got a face full of the granular material. Based on that I think the buffer is probably out. In retrospect, the buffer is intended to keep the shot round as it travels down the barrel. I'm shooting reclaimed shot that is in no way round to start with.
Conclusions? I have none. #1 if there are flying targets, #2 for difficult takedowns. Will I carry 2 different loads. No.
Next experiment. Try to get a little more shot and powder into each load. Possibly cutting the legs of the base of the wad away. Again I am aware that this lessening of cushioning will result in more deformed shot but that's what I am starting with anyway.
Ain't it fun!! 

[Brian Why]

Dunno if this will help but I use 8.5 shot and Pearl Lubed fiber wads in my 20ga and get great patterns. I think the small shot acts as it's own buffer.

YMMV