Bird's Head Grips on a '61 Navy

[Cactus Patch Kid]

Hi All,

I've been watching and reading here for quite a while and finally decided it's time to ask a question or two.

I have a little custom Pietta '61 Navy, 2" barrel, Bisley style hammer, R&D .38 conversion cylinder. What this little treasure needs (IMHO) is bird's head grips. The latest issue of Guns of the Old West shows an 1860 with what is described as Old Army San Marco bird's head grips. I have looked high and low for bird's head grips for this revolver but keep coming up empty. Anyone have a lead on a source for these grips or some that could be modified to fit. How would you make a custom grip frame?

Any advice / suggestions appreciated. Thanks.

The Cactus Patch Kid
'Raised in the cacuts patch by Mother Saguaro.'

[Pettifogger]

The grips from a SAA and the 51/61 Navy USUALLY interchange.  All of them will need some fitting, but go here and scroll down to the birdshead grip for the Pietta series of Single Actions.  These should fit.  https://www.vtigunparts.com/ab2240000Equick/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=160&cat=Pietta+1873+Single+Action+%28GW+II%2C+AWA+ASM%2C+Colt%29+45+LC%2C+44%2F40

[Flint]

I put Thunderer grips on Uberti 51/61 guns, don't know if they will fit a Pietta properly or not, ask Lisa at VTIgunparts.

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[Cactus Patch Kid]

Thanks Pettifogger. I remember reading that Colt BP & SAA grips were supposed to interchange but I never though to look at Pietta SAAs. But now another question...what I started with was sold by Cabala's as a 1862 Police Snubnose which is essentially an 1861 Navy with a 3" barrel. Isn't the SAA & Army grip the same and isn't the Navy grip smaller? VTI shows the 1861 & 1862 .36 cal to use a small grip and the 1860 .44 cal to use a large grip. Don't I need to buy the SAA trigger guard too to make it all fit together?

Thanks again,

CPK

[Pettifogger]

No, the Army grip frame is unique to the 1860.  The 51 and 61 Colts and the Single Action Army all have the "Navy" size grip.  Whether or not the trigger guard will fit depends on the shape of the backstrap.  On most of the birdshead grips the backstrap has been designed to mate with the standard trigger guard so the companies can use as many common parts as possible.  To make sure, call VTI, they should know.

[Seth Shaw]

Funny that you mention that article in GotOW, as that is my next project I want to make a set of pistols suitable for a gambler of the late 1800's and the cut down 1860 Army with an R&D conversion cylinder and 1873 birds head grips is exactly what I want.

Would VTI be my best bet for parts? For the grips, is the birds head backstrap sufficient? (I will be having custom grips made). I am absolutely obsessed with this project, I just can't stop thinking about it Hopefully I can find a local gunsmith who can help me cut down and re-crown the barrels.

[Coffinmaker]

Here is the way it usually works.  If both guns are Uberti, any grip/trigger guard frame for an 1860, 1851, 1861, or 1873 (SAA) will fit any of the others, with some "minor" fitting.  Usually, the "minor" fitting removes all the blue on the sides of the trigger guard frame and the top bosses of the grip frame.  I usually recommend using brass frames, easier to fit and no blueing afterward.  VTI carries all the Uberti grip frame and trigger guard parts.
Swapping between manufacturers is a mite more iffy.  Uberti to Pietta and vise versa, sometimes OK, sometimes not.  Luck of the draw, and usually a LOT more fitting.  I have seen Uberti to Pietta that were "drop on."  Very unusual.  I have also seen Pietta/Uberti and Uberti/Pietta that were a complete no-go.
If you don't break eggs, you don't get an omelet.
Go for it.

Coffinmaker

[Seth Shaw]

Here is the way it usually works.  If both guns are Uberti, any grip/trigger guard frame for an 1860, 1851, 1861, or 1873 (SAA) will fit any of the others, with some "minor" fitting.  Usually, the "minor" fitting removes all the blue on the sides of the trigger guard frame and the top bosses of the grip frame.  I usually recommend using brass frames, easier to fit and no blueing afterward.  VTI carries all the Uberti grip frame and trigger guard parts.
Swapping between manufacturers is a mite more iffy.  Uberti to Pietta and vise versa, sometimes OK, sometimes not.  Luck of the draw, and usually a LOT more fitting.  I have seen Uberti to Pietta that were "drop on."  Very unusual.  I have also seen Pietta/Uberti and Uberti/Pietta that were a complete no-go.
If you don't break eggs, you don't get an omelet.
Go for it.

Coffinmaker

Wow Coffinmaker, thanks very much, very informative! I'll focus on acquiring the Uberti 1860 Army's first and then some 1873 Uberti Cattleman birds head grip backstraps (preferably brass if possible) which should mate up with the 1860 trigger guard frame (also brass). I can worry about grip fitting once the frames are properly fitted together. Once all that is done I can work on finding a gunsmith who can cut down the barrels, re-crown them and help me re-finish the pistols (ideally something stainless/nickel/chrome looking).

Thanks again!

[Abilene]

Seth, the birdshead backstrap will not mate up to the 1860 triggerguard.  The triggerguard is Army sized and will be too long.  You will have to get a new triggerguard to fit the birdhead backstrap.  Also, I'm not sure but I don't think birdshead backstraps are made in brass, only in steel. 

Good luck.

[Seth Shaw]

Seth, the birdshead backstrap will not mate up to the 1860 triggerguard.  The triggerguard is Army sized and will be too long.  You will have to get a new triggerguard to fit the birdhead backstrap.  Also, I'm not sure but I don't think birdshead backstraps are made in brass, only in steel. 

Good luck.

Okay so would an 1873 Cattleman steel trigger guard fit the 1860 Army so I could get a Birds Head steel backstrap to match up with it? Unfortunately the finer points of Old West gun parts are still a mystery to me I figured I would be better off askin' you pards about as you know a heck of alot more about the subject. As I said before I can't thank ya'll enough for the advice and information. I want to make sure I go into this project armed with all the necessary information so I make the right choices the 1st time around.

Best regards,

Seth

[Abilene]

Yes.

Basically, you have to have a '51/'61/'73 SAA-sized backstrap & trigger guard.  The birdshead backstrap is compatible with the '51/'61/'73 SAA-sized trigger guard....

Actually, the brass Navy triggerguard does not mate up to the Thunderer backstrap, because the Navy gripframe and the SAA gripframe have slightly different curves (I tried it on my "Thunderer-Mason conversions"  ).  You will have to use an SAA (Model P) steel triggerguard to mate up to the Thunderer backstrap.  I'm talking Ubertis here.  Now, there is a brass gripframe that is on some of the less expensive SAA clones.  Whether that gripframe is the same as the steel SAA gripframe or the Navy gripframe, I can't tell you.  If it has the same curves as the SAA, then one of those brass triggerguards might mate to the Thunderer backstrap. 

Now, if you are talking about the rounded birdshead grip instead of the Thunderer birdshead with the hump, then I don't really know what sort of triggerguard will fit but I still suspect that the brass Navy triggerguard will not mate up to it.

Here's mine: Thunderer-Mason Conversions - I have since put the Navy grips back on because I got some Tru-Ivory grips made, but I may switch back to the Thunderer grips from time to time.

 

[Seth Shaw]

Actually, the brass Navy triggerguard does not mate up to the Thunderer backstrap, because the Navy gripframe and the SAA gripframe have slightly different curves (I tried it on my "Thunderer-Mason conversions"  ).  You will have to use an SAA (Model P) steel triggerguard to mate up to the Thunderer backstrap.  I'm talking Ubertis here.  Now, there is a brass gripframe that is on some of the less expensive SAA clones.  Whether that gripframe is the same as the steel SAA gripframe or the Navy gripframe, I can't tell you.  If it has the same curves as the SAA, then one of those brass triggerguards might mate to the Thunderer backstrap. 

Now, if you are talking about the rounded birdshead grip instead of the Thunderer birdshead with the hump, then I don't really know what sort of triggerguard will fit but I still suspect that the brass Navy triggerguard will not mate up to it.

Here's mine: Thunderer-Mason Conversions - I have since put the Navy grips back on because I got some Tru-Ivory grips made, but I may switch back to the Thunderer grips from time to time.

 

Well I was planning to buy replacement steel trigger guard frames that are designed for the Thunderer from Cimmaron as well as the Thunderer steel birds head backstrap - that is, if that trigger guard will fit onto an 1860 Army. I assumed that those 2 pieces should mate perfectly (Thunderer Triggerguard frame and backstrap). From there I would get some custom White Top Burl grips made by Klamath River Woodworks. Once that is done it's just a matter of getting the R&D Conversion Cylinders put in and the custom smithing done to the barrels and finish. I'll work on making the custom shoulder holster rig and gun belt after they are completed

Your Thunder-Masons are gorgeous pistols Abilene! That birds head / 1860 Army look is precisely what I am aiming for. Something about the lines and shape of that pistol combination struck a chord in me. The added bonus of the cutdown barrel version being a common weapon used by gamblers is great for me, as that suits my persona in SASS perfectly. I can't thank you enough for all the information and advice you've given, it's only increased my anticipation and excitement about working on this project.

Best regards,

Seth

[Abilene]

Seth, any of the Uberti gripframes (full sized, not the smaller Lightning or Model P Jr) should bolt to the 1860, as long as the triggerguard and backstraps are "matched".  What you are trying to do should work fine.  They will fit the screw holes, but if the parts you buy are new parts that have never been fit to a gun, there is a possibility that the triggerguard may be "proud" and overlap the frame above the top screwholes and possibly at the sides of the frame, and require some filing/sanding down if you want them to match the frame perfectly.  By the way, Uberti lists the steel triggerguard for the Thunderer and Model P (SAA, Cattleman, whatever) with separate part numbers, but they seem to be identical to me.

Enjoy your project, and keep us posted with pics!

[Marshal John Lawless]

Her is the gambler version with the birdshead grip frames from GOTOW:



and here is the Marshal Stoudenmire version:



The purists might say it is a crime to butcher what is arguably the most beautiful pistol of its time. It is an interesting application though.

Lawless

[Seth Shaw]

The R.L. Millington repro's are 2 of the most fascinating and beautiful pistols I have seen The moment I saw them in GotOW I was smitten. It has become my dream to slowly over time, acquire the materials necessary to re-create those pistols for use in SASS. They just perfectly fit my SASS persona and I actually think they would be A LOT of fun to use in competition.

[Flint]

The birdshead triggerguard and backstrap are both a different shape and length than either part in the standard Army or Navy plough handle grip, and will only work as a set with each other, not mixed with Army or Navy gripframe parts.

They come from VTI gunparts as a set with wood grips, with a butt screw holding them together.