Sawed off, no chokes, hall sweeper. How to tighten pattern?

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Pards,

I bought a dumb gun.  It had the action slicked up, the chambers mirror finished, the opening fixed and the barrels shortened.  Sounded like the perfect SASS scattergun.  Not to be. . .

It shoots a spreader pattern that will take out Three bad guys at 12 yards.  I mean, it's even to wide for upland partridge in Northern Wisconsin.

So, in an effort to make it get religion and at least shoot a cylinder pattern, I've taken to pulling the stumps out of Laage Uniwads and using the shot cups over a lubed fiber wad and nitro over powder card.  Shooting tests to come soon as the Algore spring arrives.

Anyway, do any of you pards have some more Laage Uniwads laying around gathering dust?  I could use 'em in that hall sweeper 311.

DD-DLoS

[Dai.S.Loe]

Get the shotgun Back Bored


http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.shotgun-back-boring.html

[Greeenriver]

DD, I'm gessing that your using BP loads and fiber wads to start with, right??

Three things I've found to tighten patterns with BP loads.

1. Switch to one piece plastic wads.
2.  Reduce your powder charge a little, and increase the shot charge a little.
3. If that don't work, try some plastic wads that don't have the ears of the shot cup cut completly.

If the above don't help, you might try having the bbls back bored, but that's kind of a lot of money and I'd leave it for last. First, I'd try diferent plastic one piece wads and lower powder charges a little, and/or a little more shot.

Best I can do to help.

Greeenriver

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Is Dai suggesting a "Jug-Choke"? To me back boring implies that the whole barrel is reamed, except for the muzzles.  I suppose the result is similar.

In jug-choking, the barrel is reamed for a few inches behind the muzzles to leave a choke at the end.  The shot column is allowed to expand, and then is choked.  In the '70's it was the rage on Skeet ranges around the world.  The Russians even named it the Tula choke!

IMHO, one should NOT cut off a perfectly good shotgun!  My best match result ever was with a 30 inch fullchoke M97.

Of course you could get screw-in choke tubes fitted.

[Dick Dastardly]

Many thanks pards.

This is the very same shotgun that I loaned to a needy darksider.  He shot an all plastic shot wad with nothing under it but Holy Black.  It took me near Two weeks to finally get the tubes cleaned out.  Nope, no more all plastic wad column in that gun.

So, I put the over powder card on top of the Holy Black followed by a quarter inch of lubed Circle Fly fiber wad.  Then, I seated the shot cup from the Laage Uniwad.  Hopefully it will get me a pattern smaller than 30" at 15 yards.

Back boring is interesting, and I have the means to do it.  But first, this is a relatively new 311.  You can tell because of the beechwood stock with pressed checkering and smeared on poly finish.  There's plenty of barrel wall left for screw in choke tubes.  All else failing, I'll have it reamed and threaded for choke tubes.  Can anybody imagine a 20" full choke SxS???

Anyway, if any pards come up with some of those Laage Uniwads, I'm looking for some.  The alternative would be some Ballistic Products steel shot cups.  A mite overkill, but if left unslit they might act like slugs. . . . .

DD-DLoS

[hellgate]

Hey DD,
didn't I send you a bunch of my ultra secret recipes for shotgun loads via PM just the other day? Get the Ballistics Products steel shot cups as suggested. However, Greenriver's suggestions are also likely to tighten the patterns but not as much as the steel shot cups (slit twice). The 1 1/4oz powder piston wad is OK too. The AA wads (both red and white) are pretty versatile since you can have 3 different heights of a wad:
- leave the wad "as is" and have the tallest wad
- cut the "legs" out completely and have a very short wad column, just cup and OP gas seal for maximum capacity
- slice the wad in two across the middle of the "legs",rotate one of the halves 90 degrees and press together for a medium height wad

I have a 311 and merely change ammo in order to change "chokes". I have my tighter (modified choke) full loads of 80grs+1 1/8oz shot and my light cylinder bore loads of 3/4-7/8oz+55grs powder for swingers or real close small fallers.

You've got to be the only one in the country with so much trouble getting plastic fouling out of the barrels. I just spray the bores down with a water based detergent solvent (windshield wiper squirter fluid to be exact) and let it soak about 3-5 minutes and shove a half a wadded up paper towel down the bore with a rod. one punch for each barrel and it's ready for a dry swab and oiling.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Lage Uniwad,  PO Box 446, Victor, Iowa


D.D., I don't know if the old man is still alive or not. I used to see him all the time at trapshoots but that was over 30 yrs. ago. I think his name was Fred Lage. Nice fella.

[Noz]

I cut the cup off of AA wads and loaded it in addition to my circle fly wads in Magtechs to tighten my patterns. Seemed to work.

[Dick Dastardly]

Thanks Pards,

Do you get any plastic "snot" in the barrels with the over powder card and the fiber wad under the shot cup?

Thanks again,

DD-DLoS

[Noz]

Minimal. 1 pass with wet paper towel and it's gone.

[Arcey]

Ain't had no luck with one shove 'n the plastics gone out the Stoegers. Don't werk when I'm around with other folks what claim they can either. Must be some bad karma 'round me.

If I were you 'n I was serious 'bout playin' with the thing I'd go with the screw-in choke tubes.

[Cuts Crooked]

DD,

In my treatise on scattergun reloading I mention the use of card wads combined with plastic shot cups to achieve better patterns and it cuts down on plastic fouling too, by preventing the flame of the powder charge from making direct contact with the plastic.

I know some of you think that the plastic is easy to get out...and it is...most of the time. But there are some guns out there that can be a real booger to get the platic out of! Don' know why, but it happens with some of them.

[Arcey]

We're gonna hafta agree ta disagree, Jan, opps, Cuts. I'm thinkin' most of 'em don't shed plastic as easy as folks say.

But, we're pards, ain't we? Just leave it be.

[Delmonico]

Best thing I ever seen to get plastic out of a shotgun barrel is Gumout carb cleaner, I shoot some bedded Nitro loads in the 28 with some slow burning Ball powder that makes a real mess.  Don't get it on the wood or any part that is plastic.  Know a fella that got one of the bright orange Ithaca sights et up with the stuff.

[Cuts Crooked]

We're gonna hafta agree ta disagree, Jan, opps, Cuts.

Uh, Arcey...I think we'uns is agreein'

[Arcey]

Aerosol brake cleaner from NAPA will eat it up. If anyone has ever got that stuff on their skin they know it ain't pleasant. That stuff is nasty.

Maybe it's just me but there ain't no reason not ta do it right ta begin with. That's no powder against plastic. 'N when ya stand there with the folks what say they get it all out with a squirt ah Windex 'n one shove of a paper towel, for some reason, it don't work.

The thread is about DD tightenin' up a shotgun. I'm done with the cleanin' part.

[Delmonico]

On that note I'd just have it jug choked, but I don't like screw in chokes.

[hellgate]

Just for clarification: IMHO the barrel fouling isn't due to BP against plastic. I've picked up my own plastic wads fired w/BP and could have reloaded and shot them again. The barrel snot forms from plastic from the wad being smeared/sanded off onto the BP fouling in the barrel followed by the hot gases melting the smear into the fouling. Subsequent rounds fired ad layer after layer. I often use plastic wad bases and no shot cup. I get a little less fouling because the abrasive action of the bare shot scrubs some of the fouling out with each shot. I don't get the snot with those all plastic loads nor with fiber fillers. I do not use card over powder wads because in the compression formed cases (Remington and old style AA) that I use, the card wads get squeezed down to a smaller diameter and I get powder gas blowby. I've witnessed some pretty funky  sounding loads with card & fiber wad columns. I recommend always using some kind of plastic cup shaped over powder wad for a nice tight gas seal and you'll get more power out of your loads and not get the plastic residue in your barrel. The snot is not appreciably from the plastic OP wad, it is from the body and cup getting smeared onto the BP fouling and then cooked in place.

[Fox Creek Kid]

The barrel snot forms from plastic from the wad being smeared/sanded off onto the BP fouling in the barrel followed by the hot gases melting the smear into the fouling.

Bingo! The base of a plastic wad is only in contact with combustive gases for a nanosecond and that's not enough to melt it. Even shotguns using smokeless have wad fouling but just to a lesser degree due to lesser fouling abrading the wad as opposed to BP fouling.

[Adirondack Jack]

DD, ya can tighten the pattern as much or as little as needed with a "coin roll" shot cup made out of ordinary computer printer paper.  I use two turns around a stub of dowel, then fold the "bottom" end ala a coin wrapper, shove it into the case on top yer fiber wads and insert the lead.  If not enough choke, use three turns, further retarding the spread of the pattern.  Do that with a good square load and yer golden.