U.S. Patent Firearms & U.S.F.A. Percussion Revolvers

drjldavis · February 18, 2008, 02:51:25 AM

I am posting a letter I sent to U.S.F.A. I did not get any reply from them so I am seeking information from the members of this forum about these revolvers.

November 2, 2007

Dear Sir:

My name is Dr. Jim L. Davis. I am the Founder and President of the Replica Percussion Revolver Collector's Association. The purpose of this organization is to promote interest in the collecting of modern production, replica, blackpowder, percussion revolvers as used in the Civil War and on the early Western Frontier. The association is now twelve years old with an international membership approaching one thousand members. This association manages the largest collection of replica black powder revolvers in the world. Our Web Site is located at: http://rprca.tripod.com This Web Site has received over 550,000 hits since its introduction to the internet.

We have been researching the modern manufactured percussion revolvers for the past twelve years in anticipation of publishing a collector's guide for the many collectors of these revolvers. Indeed, our research has shown that the collecting of replica percussion revolvers is one of the fastest growing areas of firearms collector interest. The major block to the growth of their collecting is the lack of information concerning the many different manufacturers and importer/distributors that marked their guns, and the different models each produced and marketed. We are in the final stages of producing the first edition of the guide and are attempting to verify the information we have. Since U.S. Patent Fire-Arms Manufacturing Company, now U.S. Fire-Arms Manufacturing Company is a major player we would like to have as accurate information as possible for our book. I have emailed the company in the past with very little success of obtaining this information. I even talked with your president at the Shot Show in Las Vegas, Nevada a few years back as well as on the phone. We are now at the deadline stage of publication and need your help.

We are in possession of the First Edition of your catalog but it is without a date so we are not sure when U.S. Patent Fire-Arms Manufacturing Company was organized. We also have the Dallas Shot Show announcements and price lists for 1996. The copyright date on an instruction booklet is 1994.

We also have specimens of the following revolvers.

1.   1860 Army with stag grips – Serial Number 5197, fitted with two piece stag grips. NIB with original papers. Originally sold to Harry DeGeorge. Marked -ADDRESS U.S. PATENT HARTFORD CT. U.S. AMERICA - (Top Barrel) U.S. Patent (LtSd Frame)
2.   1851 Navy – Serial Number 130988. NIB with Sleeve and original papers. Instruction booklet bears copyright date of 1994. Marked -ADDRESS U.S. PATENT HARTFORD CT. U.S. AMERICA - (Top Barrel)
3.   1851 3rd Model Dragoon in the white– Serial Numbers 1960 & 1961. NIB with original wrappings. Marked Under loading lever: (Italian Proof Marks in front of) CAL 44 BLACK POWDER ONLY - A. UBERTIITALY. Very small lettering and very faint.

Information we seek is as follows:

1.   What year was U.S. Patent Fire-Arms Manufacturing Company actually established. Who was the President? Are back issues of you catalogs and literature available?
2.   We are aware, by second hand information, that Colt did not like your name and you were forced to change it to U.S. Fire-Arms Manufacturing Company. What are the true details? Was there a legal action that could be verified on the internet? This is of historical interest as well as the establishment of collectability and value of guns marked with the original name of the company. Were any percussion revolvers produced with the new name?
3.   In the beginning you used Uberti parts and completed revolvers in your manufacture, but they were finished and reworked by you(same as Colt did continuously). Since we have two Uberti Dragoons in the white in original U.S. Patent Fire-Arms Manufacturing Co. boxes we assume this to be true.
4.   Are their any records of the number of different models that were actually made and sold? Your 1st Edition Catalog show sixteen (16) different models, the same as what was produced by Uberti. How many models did you actually produce and sell? These numbers are extremely important in establishing potential collectability and value.
5.   Did Uberti grant you special serial number ranges for your revolvers? The 1851 Navy with a 130988 serial number suggests that it did not as does the 1860 Army with a 5197 serial number. The consecutive serial numbers on the two 1851 3rd Model Dragoons also suggest this. We know that Uberti has always been notorious in their serial numbering of percussion revolvers. Indeed, we have observed Uberti revolvers made for different importers/distributors with the same number. This makes it impossible to speculate anything based on serial numbers in these guns. Only you can provide accurate information as to the actual number of models produced and sold, and their serial numbering.
6.   The only revolvers that we have been made aware of by collectors and shooters on your own forums and other sources suggest that the only models ever observed were the 1851 Navy, 1860 Army, and the 1851 3rd Model Dragoon. Are there others? How many?

U.S. Fire-Arms Manufacturing Company has already established itself as a major player in the manufacture of historic firearms of the highest quality and it is for this reason that this information be shared with the firearms fraternity. Since you no longer produce the percussion revolvers it is even more important that this history be documented before all is totally lost. The sharing of this information will most certainly establish the percussion revolvers with your markings among the most desirable to acquire and the most valuable.

Thank you for your help,

Dr. Jim L. Davis

Doc Sunrise · February 18, 2008, 04:06:08 AM

I have to admit that from my own experience and in the format that you presented to the company, it sounds too much like a fishing expedition for some information that I would consider sensitive. I can see why you received no response, and I can see why you will probably not receive one in here, wromg place, wrong way. There are some very good articles that answer many of your questions that are available from the USFA web site. This may be a good start.

With the competition as it is and the way Colt is, the new kid on the block needs to be very careful in every step it takes. When you grab market share and aim for the top, those on the ladder below are constantly grabbing at you at will not hesitate to use any means to knock you off. With that, and the way you presented your inquiry, I would have done the same thing.

Fox Creek Kid · February 18, 2008, 10:33:30 AM

Ditto Doc Sunrise.

RRio · February 18, 2008, 11:47:46 AM

Welcome to the board!
A lot of that info is available here:

http://usfirearms.com/pages/publishedreviews.asp

You can also find a lot of info in this article from that page:

Shoot Magazine - The mystery behind USFA is solved. A detailed report about United States Fire-Arms Manufacturing. From Shoot Magazine, November/December 2006

Banjoman can give you some answers, also.

drjldavis · February 22, 2008, 08:58:18 PM

I sincerely invite further comment on the letter submitted to U.S.F.A. If you will again review the information sought it has nothing to do with secrets of production or even current products. U.S.F.A. once operated under the name of U. S. Patent Firearms Manufacturing and ran into some problems with Colt. This is fact, not secret information. Also, they did produce percussion revolvers for a short while.

RPRCA is a collecting point for information dealing with the many manufacturers, distributors, and dealers that produced and identified their product by marking the firearms with their logos, names, etc. All we are seeking is the correct information concerning the percussion revolvers produced by U.S.F.A. Serial number ranges are available from Colt, Pietta, and some other manufacturers and that is what we seek. Other manufacturers such as Uberti, Armi San Marco, and other Italian manufacturers did not keep any record of their serial numbers so these numbers are useless to determine anything about their guns. Since Black Powder firearms do not have to be serial numbered it leaves it up to the researcher, writer, or publishers to go on speculation. If the company involved does not find it important to let collectors know what is fact and what is not, then we publish with what we have.

I have received several responses to this post by direct email; enough to make me realized that there is great interest in the collecting of the U.S.F.A. percussion revolvers. Suggestions on who to contact would be very much appreciated. So far none of the references provided cover the percussion revolvers.

I have found forums to be an excellent source of information or leads to information in research. That is why I post on these. This forum has to do with collecting U.S.F.A. firearms so it seemed logical to post here.

snhawk · February 22, 2008, 10:10:30 PM

I am new to this forum so my questions may be redundant. I recently saw two 1861 Navy revolvers in the white at a gun show that were in U.S. Firearms black boxes. They had no markings except two digit serial numbers with a prefix and the Uberti logo on the left side of the frame. Did U.S. Firearms ever sell percussion revolvers? I see information about conversions but not percussion revolvers. What would those 1861 Navy's be worth?

Capt. John Fitzgerald · February 22, 2008, 11:17:03 PM

Dr. Davis,
Good luck in your endeavour. There are many of us who wish there was more "historical" data available from USFA. Maybe someday they will actually create the position of historian.
As you are aware, USFA started out in 1993 as U. S. Patent Fire Arms Company. As I recall, it was around 1994 that Colt took them to task over the use of the word "Patent" in their name. To the best of my knowledge, it was Colt's contention that they (USFA) never held any of the patents that applied to the guns they were manufacturing and that the use of the word patent in their name tacitly implied that USFA held the patents that originally belonged to Colt. Whatever the reason, Colt prevailed and the word Patent was dropped from the name.
One look at an early USFA catalog would indicate that there were, at the time, plans to produce a full line of percussion, Colt style revolvers. I believe that several prototypes of various models were made. At the time this was being done, USFA was still importing a number of their parts from Uberti. I believe that the percussion revolvers were made up primarily, if not entirely, of Uberti parts that were fit and finished by USFA. The only evidence I have seen of any of these prototypes being put into actual production is the 1851 Navy model. I have no idea how many were actually made but do recall that at one point USFA was offering them on their web site at "close out" prices ($795 as I recall).
In addition to the percussion revolvers, USFA also produced an 1851 Navy with the .38 caliber Richards Mason conversion. I own one of these and when I inquired about the number made I was told by USFA, "less than 40, probably closer to 35."

The Avocado Kid · February 23, 2008, 12:57:39 AM

Dr. Jim L. Davis....This is on another subject but...I have tried to join your collectors group a few times online but I received no response from said group....is there any trick in joining?

Black Powder · February 23, 2008, 04:43:07 PM

Quote from: Capt. John Fitzgerald on February 22, 2008, 11:17:03 PM
Dr. Davis,
Good luck in your endeavour. There are many of us who wish there was more "historical" data available from USFA. Maybe someday they will actually create the position of historian.

Resume sent.

drjldavis · February 25, 2008, 04:50:21 AM

Thank you Capt. John. This is the type information I was hoping to elicit and is very helpful along with other bits that others have provided. I wish it were possible to find out from other participants of this forum what percussion revolvers they may own or have seen. Serial number ranges would also be helpful to determine if certain blocks of numbers were provided by Uberti and if USFA designated any numbers to particular revolvers.

As stated in my original posting, RPRCA owns a 1851 Navy in the original box with papers and a 1860 Army with stag grips from the custom shop, also with original papers and invoice. The Dragoons do not have any markings except the Uberti logo and the USFA boxes. Knowledge of any other percussion revolvers would be extremely appreciated. SN Hawk mentioned two 1861 Navy revolvers in the white in USFA boxes, also without any markings except Uberti.

USFA is only one of the companies that RPRCA is reseaching who produced percussion revolvers. Most of the companies that marked their guns are no longer in business and the only source of information is from interested parties that have volunteered their knowledge. One such example is the Centennial/Centaure revolver. Enough information was gathered from forums that a new Society of collectors have emerged on this one revolver. Look at :

http://www.1960nma.org/

This research was a result of a question and responses on this very site.

For those interested in the collecting of Replica Percussion Revolvers may find the Replica Percussion Revolver Collector's Association web site of interest. The outline of the research is on this site.

http://rprca.tripod.com

I will apologize to any who have had trouble with our membership form. Membership is free so the only response will be the Thank You page. Avocado Kid, I will check to see if your membership was recorded and get back to you. I started the RPRCA on the internet some 13ys ago to see if there was interest in collecting the replica revolvers. The membership is near 1000 worldwide at this time with around twenty percent being from overseas. Association is now incorporated and manages the largest collection of replica percussion revolvers in the world. I am looking for a museum or group to take over this association as it has been a one man operation both in time and financing. I am 73yrs old and have discovered that I may not be immortal afterall.

The Avocado Kid · February 25, 2008, 05:24:33 AM

Quote from: drjldavis on February 25, 2008, 04:50:21 AM
Thank you Capt. John. This is the type information I was hoping to elicit and is very helpful along with other bits that others have provided. I wish it were possible to find out from other participants of this forum what percussion revolvers they may own or have seen. Serial number ranges would also be helpful to determine if certain blocks of numbers were provided by Uberti and if USFA designated any numbers to particular revolvers.

As stated in my original posting, RPRCA owns a 1851 Navy in the original box with papers and a 1860 Army with stag grips from the custom shop, also with original papers and invoice. The Dragoons do not have any markings except the Uberti logo and the USFA boxes. Knowledge of any other percussion revolvers would be extremely appreciated. SN Hawk mentioned two 1861 Navy revolvers in the white in USFA boxes, also without any markings except Uberti.

USFA is only one of the companies that RPRCA is reseaching who produced percussion revolvers. Most of the companies that marked their guns are no longer in business and the only source of information is from interested parties that have volunteered their knowledge. One such example is the Centennial/Centaure revolver. Enough information was gathered from forums that a new Society of collectors have emerged on this one revolver. Look at :

http://www.1960nma.org/

This research was a result of a question and responses on this very site.

For those interested in the collecting of Replica Percussion Revolvers may find the Replica Percussion Revolver Collector's Association web site of interest. The outline of the research is on this site.

http://rprca.tripod.com

I will apologize to any who have had trouble with our membership form. Membership is free so the only response will be the Thank You page. Avocado Kid, I will check to see if your membership was recorded and get back to you. I started the RPRCA on the internet some 13ys ago to see if there was interest in collecting the replica revolvers. The membership is near 1000 worldwide at this time with around twenty percent being from overseas. Association is now incorporated and manages the largest collection of replica percussion revolvers in the world. I am looking for a museum or group to take over this association as it has been a one man operation both in time and financing. I am 73yrs old and have discovered that I may not be immortal afterall.

Dr. Jim L. Davis.... I received your e-mail today. Thanks so much