BP Shotshells

[Two Rivers Marshal]

Howdy folks, few questions here.

Now that ya'all have got me hooked on the boom and smoke, looking into loading BP sotshells.

#1. I asked earlier about loading fffg in my .45's and was told not to use it in cartridges, cant find the thread so maybe you can refresh the memory.  Is 3f ok in shotshells? (12ga).

#2. If not, the local sporting goods store has a few choices of Pyrodex, cant remember off hand which flavors, but there was a few.  Any recommendations of which to use?

#3. My pard uses Estate factory smokeless rounds so I would have plenty of hulls to reload with.  Also have my supply of AA hulls, any problems using "off brand" hulls for BP?

#4 Probably getting tired of all the questions but I think this is the last for now.  I have read about a "square" load.  Using the same volume of shot and powder.  I have a 1oz and 1 1/8 oz shot bars.  The 1oz bar will fill the big 4.3 cc Lee dipper with a few spare pellets left over (7 1/2 shot).  To load this square load, would I fill the 4.c diipper with ffg or fffg which ever ya'all recommend then the same amount of shot?  Of course adding the appropriate wads in between.  The other option I have read says to use more shot than powder.  Would the 4.3 cc of powder and my 1 1/8 shot bar be a decent load?

Appreciate all the help I have received on loading my .45's and look forward to hearing ya sound off on this predicament.

Changin the subject a bit here.... went to a new club last month.  Still shooting the 777 loads.  After about the 2nd or 3rd shot, the timer and the others for that matter began making all sorts of weird sounds.  Seems I must have finally gotten the compression right on these loads as there was enough smoke the 7th calvary could have rode up and not be seen.  Bout the only thing that could be seen was the grin on my face at the end of the stage.  Cant wait to get all my guns puffin smoke out em.

Thanks for your help

TRM

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

2 creeks;
1.  The more "F's", the smaller the grain size, making the powder burn faster. (and with higher pressure.)
FFFF   only for flintlock priming
FFF    for smaller calibers, generally  .45 or less.
FF      larger calibers, .50 and over and most shotguns
F       often called "cannon" powder.  It is sometimes called for in old, larger caliber, long barrelled military arms like .450-577

There is a lot of overlap between 2F and 3F, and there are a variety of opinions.  I have a .54 muzzleloader and shot it with identical volumes of 2F and 3F  GOEX powder.  The 3F was about 30% faster over the Chrony, meaning the pressure was much higher.  Those who suggest 3F for the shotgun generally use much smaller charges.

I use 3F for pistols and carbine loads, and 2F for larger rifles and for shotguns.  It is my observation that the majority of Soot Lords do the same.  Using 2F in the smaller brass cases drops the muzzle velocity somewhat, and in most cases gives satisfactory results.  If you wish to stock only one powder, I'd settle on 2F.  "Cartridge" grade powders are between FF and FFF, and work well, but are generally more expensive.

2.  PYRODEX is marked a bit differently, but "P" (pistol") equates to FFF.  and "RS" ("rifle & shotgun") equates to FF.  There is also a "Cartridge" grade, between the two.  In effect, there is not much to choose between Pyrodex and black.  Both result in about the same cleaning chore, but the build-up in Pyrodex might be less.  There are other replica black powders, each with it's own characteristics.  For most CAS shooting, get what is available at the best price.

3.  The cheapest shells often suffer from pin hole burn throughs.  They all are affected by heat more than with smokeless.  If using a double gun, find a shell that comes out of the gun with a backward jerk on the gun.  With my old TOZ 66 Baikal, any Remington product easily ejected.  I use NITRO 27 for competition, as the gold color makes them resemble brass.

4.  The British coined the phrase SQUARE LOAD.  It means TWO things;
     a.  The shot column is the same HEIGHT as the bore diameter.
     b.  The blackpowder load is the same VOLUME as the shot load.

Without making little tubes of bore diameter and measuring the height of the load, it is generally a common light load that fulfills the first criterion.  For the 12 ga., somewhere between 1 and 1 1/8 oz, and for the 20 ga, about 7/8 oz.  The powder load should be the same volume, but up to 30% LESS, giving lighter recoil, and tighter patterns at the expense of knockdown power.

The British gunmakers creating light game guns, had a rule that the gun should weigh 96 times the shot load for the best balance of recoil and effectiveness.  For example, a 6 pound gun would take a 1 oz. load, and 7 1/2 pound gun a 1 1/4 oz load.

Shooting the Holy Black is a kick, literally and figuratively.  look around these pages for more advice.

Enjoy your shooting!

[Ransom Gaer]

Two Rivers,

Too answer your questions.

1.  Iffen you're not supposed to be loading 3F in .45 caliber cartridges I'm in big trouble.   I've been doing it for a long time.  I use either Goex 3F, Cowboy or 2F in my short .45 caliber cartridges (.45 Colt or .45 Schofield).  They all seem to work fine.  .45 caliber is considered to be kind of a transition caliber between 3F and 2F.  Meaning you can use either.  Cowboy is supposed to be half way between 3F and 2F.  In my .45-70 cartridges I use only 2F or 1 1/2F.

2. I've used Pyrodex a little.  I prefer real BP.  I have used both Goex and Graf and Sons in my cowboy loads.  I actually like the Graf and Sons better.  Seems cleaner.  Goex is easier to get, so that is what I use.  I can't say anything more about Pyrodex than what Sir Charles said.

3. I can't help here at all.  I use the Magtech all brass shotshells.  I like them.

4. I started with a 3 dram square load which is roughly 82 grains of black powder and 1 1/8 oz. of shot.  Found with my coachgun a fair amount of recoil and I think it was affecting my accuracy.  So I inadvertantly backed the powder charge down to 70 grains and found that it produced plenty of smoke(this is important afterall) and tamed the recoil.  First time I used them their were a total of 30 shotgun targets for the match and I used 30 shells.  At the second match using the lighter loads basically the same result.

You'll find that us darksiders are a friendly bunch.  We are happy to answer questions when they come up.  You'll find that we do use special terms that at times seem to be designed to make shooting BP a deep mystery.  It really isn't.  It is absolutely the funnest way to shoot cowboy style.  Welcome to the Darkside.

Ransom Gaer

[Wildcat Will]

2R I would follow up wit what Ransom was saying.  I too use brass hulls and my recipe is about 1 1/8 oz of #8 over about 75gns of Goex FF.  Makes lots of smoke and knocks down everything I have run across.   

I use Goex FF in my 45LC for both the rifle and the pistols.  Again lots of smoke and it knocks down anything what needs knocking down and makes lots of smoke, fire and BOOOM.   

[Lucky Irish Tom]

TRM I load Goex 2F just like WW.

I tend to cut my powder load a little with grits and don't usually have problems with knockdown targets.

I use whatever leftover hulls I can get out of the shotshell bucket at the end of a match, I am finding that some of the used AA shells crumple a little whe being reloaded.  I inspect them to make sure there hasn't been any burn through or pinholes and I haven't had a problems with any I use.

I prefer the leftover Remington ribbed shotshells as they seem to slide out of my SxS easier.

[Dick Dastardly]

That same charge bar, if it's an all aluminum one with no bushings, can be bored out on the powder end to drop the charge you want.  Simply use a drill bit that fits the shot hole and drill out the powder hole.  If you want less than a "square" load, don't drill it all the way thru.  Stop maybe at 1/2 way thru and load some shells with it.

I'm using a MEC 600 Jr Mk-V for all my shot shell reloading.  It handles black powder just fine.  If you're worried about it, you can get a metal drop tube from MEC and you will have an all metal path to the shell.  If you're concerned about plastic, take a look at that dipper.  I'm bettin' it's a LEE plastic dipper.  Well, there ya go.  Plastic is ok.  Yer puttin' the powder in plastic hulls, plastic again.  Your black powder may well be in a plastic bottle.  More plastic.  What's a guy to do to avoid plastic?  Get in a time machine and go back to 1880. . . .

The MEC will do your work.  Don't smoke and reload.

DD-DLoS

[Noz]

I load 20ga Magtechs with the 4.3cc dipper of reclaimed shot and the 4cc dipper of Pyrodex RS. Using the Pyrodex because WallyWorld had it on sale for $7. I prefer Goex FFg or SKIRMISH Fg as shotgun powder but I can't argue with economy.
Whatever powder I use I use the same two dippers.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy!

I have used both 2f and 3f in everything I load with BP; 38 S&W, 44 & 36 C&B, 44 Mag - at 44 spl pressures - 45 Colt and 12 ga in my MagTechs.  I have loaded a few (maybe 5 or 10) in 45-70 just to try it, but have since gone to GOEX Cartridge in 45-70.  The 45 Colt and 12 ga were fine using 3f: they were simply a bit more "energetic" but certainly still safe.  I use 3f WAY more than 2f, by the way - it's what I prefer.

[Marshal Tac]

Marshal,
You didn't specify how or what machine you were using to load your shotshells with, but if you are using a MEC, a "square load" is easy enough to make.

I use both Shutzen 2F and 2f 777, dependant on what I have on hand at the time. My load is 1 1/8th of #8 shot, red Winchester wad or a Clay buster replacement version (Part # CB-1138-12) over about 4 CC's of powder. I had to adjust my machine to allow for the proper crimp, but once done, ended up with a very mild recoiling load that has never left a KD target standing. Patterns real nice out of my Stoeger SXS and my 87 clone. I only load using Winchester AA hulls, because thats what I have the most of and can scrounge at my range. They also shuck out of my SXS real well. 

In order to get the exact 4.0 CC volume I was looking for, I took DD's advise and drilled out the largest MEC bushing I had on hand, a little at a time, until I got it to throw exactly 4.0 CC's of powder. Since this is the only load for my Shotguns that I use, I never have to change anything and just leave my machine set up. Of course I empty and store my powder and shot after each loading session. I load on a MEC 600 Jr. press, and generally load about 8-10 boxes at a session. One or two sessions a year will keep me in shells for most of my matches... Unless I need more for a big shoot or am planning on haveing someone (New shooter) come along with me and shoot my spare guns.

Good luck.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Well, to add one more to the mix, I use 2F in everthing. 45 Colt, 45 Schofield,44-40, 45-70. and 12 gauge. But you can certainly use 3F if that's all you can find.

As for a square load, I am probably somewhere in the 30% less vicinity that Sir Charles was talking about. I load all my shotgun shells, Smokeless and BP, on my MEC Jr. I use the standard 1 1/8 ounce charge bar to throw 1 1/8 ounces of #8. I dip in a 4.3CC Lee dipper of FFg. This is a bit less than a square load, it is roughly somewhere in the vicinity of 68-70 grains of powder, or about a 2 1/3 dram load. I do this out of sheer convenience, the 4.3CC dipper is the largest dipper in the LEE set, and my charge bar throws 1 1/8 ounces of shot. Less than an equal volume of powder is fine, this load knocks down everything I point it at, as long as I do my job and hit the target squarely. If ya don't hit the target squarely, that's another story. Putting too much powder in the hull for a given amount of shot can blow a hole through the middle of the pattern.

Since Dick has raised the issue of static and plastic, I must correct one statement he has made. Yes, you will generate a static charge with a plastic dipper or a plastic hull, but you cannot compare that charge to the charge generated by a plastic hopper on a shotshell press. Static charges vary with surface area. A plastic hopper has a much greater surface area than a dipper or a shotgun hull. The larger surface area generates more of a charge.

[Dick Dastardly]

If a plastic hopper on your press gives you pause, try using an all metal one.  The old round Winchester powder cans will screw right on and so will some of the Dragon/LIDU cans.  If you look around you will find a metal can that will mount on your MEC.  If you want to get fancy, you can cut a hole in the bottom so that the MEC plug will fit.  That way you can add powder on the fly.  Also, I like to put a 1/4" hole in the plug and put a follower on a piece of dowel rod that rides on the powder.  That way you can tell how much powder is left in the home made hopper.

Happy reloadin'.

DD-DLoS

[Two Rivers Marshal]

Thanks for all of the replies folks, worked late last couple nights and didn't have time to say much.

I am using the MEC Jr press.  I have the 1oz and 1 1/8 oz shot bars.  From what you all have said.  I believe I would be pretty safe using the 4cc powder and 1oz shot.   Keeping the shot a bit more than the powder.  Only reason I say to use the 1oz shot bar is just the cost of shot.  Get a few more rounds out of that $50 bag of shot. 

As far as the 2f or 3f, I can get either at the store, but I had a pard give me a full jug of 3f. Might as well use the free stuff before spending more. 

Heading to the store tomorrow.  Have another question for everyone.  I have seen the wads that look kinda like cardboard disks in the muzzleloader section.  I am assuming these are the wads needed for the over powder and over shot cards.  Seen some others that look like a some kind of fiber 1/4 inch or so thick.  Guessing this is what I need for the "cushion"  wad. 

That leads into one more question, do I need an over shot card when using the plastic hulls or is the regular crimp fine.

In other posts, I have see ya'all talk about using a 10 or 11 gauge wad in a 12 ga shell.  Is this meant for all hulls or mainly the brass hulls?

Thanks for all the help folks.

Two Rivers

[Two Rivers Marshal]

Knew I was forgetting something.  When loading with smokeyless powder, I use around 30# pressure on the wad.  Can I still use the wad seating die on the press to compress the powder?  If so, is 30# sufficient?  Have also read about using a wood dowel to compress the powder.  This work better? 

TRM

[Marshal Tac]

Can't help u there Marshal... I load my BP shotshells just like I load smokeless, just more powder. Plastic hull, 209 primer, powder, plastic wad, shot and a nice crimp.  Never used the over powder/wad cards or fiber wads.... Or brass hulls for that matter.

[Dick Dastardly]

For all your bp wad needs, go here.  They have exactly what you need.

http://www.circlefly.com/

For shot that costs a LOT less than $50 a bag, go here.  They have flat rate shipping.  The Eagle brand shot is made in Peru.  I'm loading it till it warms up enough to run my shot maker.

http://www.recobstargetshop.com/

DD-DLoS

[Cuts Crooked]

You will find a lot of the answers to your question, the ones you've got now and the ones yer gonna have later, (and beleive me you WILL have more  ) in The Dark Arts room in this thread : http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,9733.0.html

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

We are about to re-invent the wheel!

I went up to THE DARK ARTS, the child board just at the top here.  Go to the 4th thread, LOADING SHOTSHELLS.  Most of us posted in it, and it has 5 pages on these very points.

Two Rivers Marshal, and all us other wise pards(!?) should go up and read it.  THEN come back and ask any further questions that occur to you.

Use that 3F, but drop the charge down, I'd say no more than LEE 4cc (55gr.)
Yes, an overpowder wad under a plastic wad works fine

PS JUST NOTICED!  Cuts gave the same reference at the same time I was "hunting & pecking" (really; just exercising my trigger finger!)

[Two Rivers Marshal]

Well folks, stopped at the store today and picked up a bag that had over powder and over shot cards along with a bag of 1/2 in wads already lubed.  They didnt have Goex but they had Pyrodex RS in ffg.  I found about a hundred federal hulls in the cabinet so I figure  I should be pretty well set now.  Will try out 4cc of powder and an ounce of shot and see how she shoots. 

Appreciate all the help. 

One last question....for now anyways.  The 3f I have is 777.  Sir Charles recommended dropping to 4cc with the 3f powder.  I know 777 is a bit hotter, think maybe the next smaller dipper if I was to use it?

Two Rivers

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

TRM;  You should go to HODGDON's website,or look in their manual for 777 data.

My 2005 Hodgdon manual only refers to FF grade 777  The listed load for 12 ga cartridge guns shows 70 gr under 1 1/8 oz with the W-W red wad, for 1187fps.  The same VOLUME with Pyrodex travels at 1100fps.

Without data or experience, I can only say that with FFF you should drop down, and find a load on the website.

[Cuts Crooked]

See?!?! I tol' ya you'd have more questions! 

I have no experiance with 777, but the old rule of thumb I've gone with for many years with P{yrdex and real BP is to drop the charge by about 10% when going from 2F to 3F. It's always werked fer me and I can't think of any reason it wouldn't werk wif 777.