Traditions Richards 44 Colt

[Dirty]

Hi all,

I signed up after a good year or more of just looking at the site, and forums.

I am not as yet a action shooter, but have had all the goodies for it. I am a "Great Lakes Fur Trade Era" re-enactor and gunsmith by profession. Also sell antique and modern British sporting firearms.

I was at set up at a show last week, and a fellow walked by my table with the revolver shown in the photo. I have for years before anyone really got into open frames, thought of doing conversions myself, but always seemed to have too many irons in the fire.

Anyway, it is marked ASM Traditions under the barrel. Never knew Traditions made a 1st model Richards. It is pretty nice, but I will do a few modifications to it. One incorrect thing is it has a non-rebated cylinder. Well, it's still neat. It is set up for 44 Colt with the small rim, so these cases will have to be aquired. Is starline the only place to buy them? I checked out Midway, and they don't list them.

I thought of modifying, to accept 44 Special rims, but it will make the ratchet too thin on this arm.

Also see the photo of one of my Granddaughters slaving away at the bench. They have to learn a trade sometime!

That project was a n exact copy of a Wheeler Northwest trade gun in the Minn. Historical museum collection. Just completed and will be on permenent display at the Grand Portage national Monument museum.

Now if I will ever get paid by the Government!

Mark Baker

[kurt250]

i have several u.s.firarm conversion pistols. they are alot of trouble. i bought a cimmerion open top and have had no trouble at all. the guy who made the american frontier firearms was ahead of his times but was short on quality. i would love to sell them all but i'd feel bad for the guy who bought them

[Fox Creek Kid]

ASM also forgot to machine in the correct "lip" on the 1st Model ring.    Believe it or not, ASM actually made an 1872 Open Top. I bought one off the SASS classifieds around 2000 and what a POS it was! It had a removeable gas ring!!!  The quality was two or three tiers below an Uberti and the Uberti is far more authentic as well.

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[Abilene]

Howdy Dirty,
The ASM (Armi San Marcos) Richards were imported by Traditions, Navy Arms, Cimarron, and I think EMF.  Most of them had lots of quality problems. But some of them were well made so hopefully you got one of those.  Parts are very hard to find, so take care of it!  Good luck.

[Dusty Morningwood]

Man, my ASM Richards 1860 was also a POS.  Literaly could not hit a 3' square target at 25 yds!   

[Hoof Hearted]

i have several u.s.firarm conversion pistols. they are alot of trouble. i bought a cimmerion open top and have had no trouble at all. the guy who made the american frontier firearms was ahead of his times but was short on quality. i would love to sell them all but i'd feel bad for the guy who bought them

Kurt
I'd be happy to relieve you of those pistols
You won't have to feel bad about me getting them at all as I am capable of fixing any problems that may arise!
Seriously..............let me know

buckoff@alltel.net

[Dirty]

Guys,

What were the problems ?

The one I purchased was $300, and thought it was a good buy, as I don't think it was ever shot. I slugged the bore and it measures .430. I don't think making ammo that will hit the target will be a problem. I just need to get some brass. If you couldn't hit anything, was it bore diameter, and did you load a hollow base bullet to make up for the bullet/bore difference? Was it a bent barrel, and that could be fixed easy enough.

Were the action parts soft? or why were your revolvers "POS" ?

The internals seem properly hardened, although I did not do a rockwell test on them, as I didn't think it was nessesary when I started stoning them. They seemed right.

Just need some imput, as I think it is a pretty nice piece.

It had a "very" light trigger pull, and was dangerous, so I fixed that. I want to do a little work on the extractor housing to make it look and fit a little better, and chequer the extractor rod head, as it is not quite correct.

I don't think I have ever had a firearm that I didn't have to do something to, so it would be up to what I wanted.

Are the new Uberti conversions, in any guise correct? Are they 100% correct in shape and style? Do they need tweeking in the hammer spur and rod head chequering, action parts need re-heatreating, etc. etc.

I haven't seen any of the new ones. what's correct and what's wrong with them?


Give me the low-down please!

I have an itch for a 1872 open top and a mason conversion.

Thanks,

Mark

[Fox Creek Kid]

You don't need hollow base bullets as these are MODERN .44 Colt (Black Hills Ammo) and as such are 0.430 and not ORIGINAL .44 Colt that uses heel based bullets of approx. 0.452 diam.

Armi San Marco quality control was hit & miss. Mainly miss. Parts fitted wretchedly & metal the consistency of a Crayon, i.e., POS.

[Four-Eyed Buck]

Among other problems the barrel alignment could be off, light trigger pulls( ie: too light, lots of AD's). Saw a few of those when they first came out, very nice looking guns, but quality was a real crap shoot. Almost bought an 1861 with the 5 1/2" barrel. Somebody else got it first, it ended up going back to EMF with some major problems. Don't know what ever happened after that...................Buck

[Hoof Hearted]

Seth

My experiences mirror yours. Well stated

[Capt. Willard]

I had been looking for one of these for awhile now..never had the cash when they were first offered and then they just dried up. On a lark I just wandered into my local gas emporium and there was a georgeous one sittin there waiting for me in .44 colt no less! I grabbed it up to check it out and sure enough it wouldnt rotate the cylander due to the barrel gap being too tight I think. I think it is new unfired in the box. I asked them to repair it and if it checks out it will be mine..they have my name on it. Sure wish they made these with the rebated cylander. My plan is to perhaps relieve the frame and fit a percusion cylander and convert it to look more authentic with a rebated frame and cylander. This may or may not be possible. It will depend on if the cylander pin will fit the new cylander and if the chambers will line up with the barrel. Hopefully I will be ahead of the game in terms of not having to wait years for Bob Milligin to charge me huge money for one of his. Should be an interesting project.

[Fox Creek Kid]

My plan is to perhaps relieve the frame and fit a percusion cylander and convert it to look more authentic with a rebated frame and cylander.

That will be a bottomless money pit IMO and probably will not work in the end. You would be MANY dollars and headaches ahead to just buy an Uberti. 

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I had the same experience with the ASM Richards (Traditions and EMF).  The first two were excellent, I loved them.  Several years later after I parted with them I got another, and it was GARBAGE!!!!!!!!!  First two were EMFs, the third was Traditions.

[Capt. Willard]

Thanks for the opinions guys.
I forgot to mention I have other ASM RichardsType ones such as the 1851 in .38 special and the 1861 in .44 colt already. They are all beauties but I havn't had a chance to fire any of them yet. The 1861 is absolutely stunning in its fit and finish and timing. It's timing is so good it doesn't leave a trace of bluing wear anywhere. It's a shame it isn't in the authentic caliber and I am normally a stickler for that but this one was the first type one I had a chance to buy and it was a looker so I went for it. Plus at least the non rebated cylander is correct on the navies. I'll most likely go for the army anyway just to have them all. It wont keep me from my type 2 Uberti I have been waiting for in .44 colt trust me.
I also have a nice Cimmaron Richards Mason 1860 Army as well...I love it but I think i have one of the earlier ones with the shorter cylander.
It's a shame the factories won't go that last little bit to make them more authentic...short ejector rods, short cylanders, oversized cylanders, non rebated cylanders and frames that should be rebated...it's irritating because they are so close to greatness at factory prices compared to gunsmith work.

[Fox Creek Kid]

I also have a nice Cimmaron Richards Mason 1860 Army as well...I love it but I think i have one of the earlier ones with the shorter cylander.
It's a shame the factories won't go that last little bit to make them more authentic...short ejector rods, short cylanders, oversized cylanders, non rebated cylanders and frames that should be rebated...it's irritating because they are so close to greatness at factory prices compared to gunsmith work.

The short cylinder was temporary on the '60 RM by Uberti. All those since approx. 2003 are correct. The cylinders are made a little oversize for your protection and they are rebated with a stepped frame. 

P.S. It's CYLINDER. 

[Capt. Willard]

Thanks Fox..it must be my Texas accent

[Dirty]

Well boys, I got around to shooting the "Garbage" Traditions conversion yesterday. ( Photo in first post )

The weather broke, and you can stand outside for more than a minute without freezing your  off!

Ended up shooting Unique powder and a 200 grain bullet. I know, the black powder is calling, but just wanted to shoot it, as the brass arrived afew days ago.

This revolver shoots! I shot 6 rounds off hand at 10 -15 yards and all in a black circle 3" diameter, and to piont of aim!

Yea, thats not much, you say, but first load, off hand and not messing with anything! I'm hooked of open tops now!

Next guns, 1851 Mason in 38 and another 1860 Richards in 44. Uberti by Taylors or Cim. I just hope they all shoot as well.

Later,

Mark

[Flint]

I can second the remarks about ASM conversions.  I had two (dumped them at a gun show).  First thing was getting them to fire, the firing pin springs were stronger than the mainspring with the hammer down.  Clipped some coils.

Worst problem was the cylinder/barrel mis-alignment.  The cylinder arbors were not square to the frame, which pointed the barrel to the right, I recall.  The cylinder locking notches were off enough to misalign to the bore, as well as not spaced evenly, so each chamber's mis-alignment was different.

Cure for that would be either a new cylinder, or weld and recut the notches.  The cylinder was increased in diameter without lifting the arbor center, so the floor (waterline) of the frame was thinned out to clear the cylinder as mentioned by Seth Hawkins.  The bolt didn't even resemble a Colt Bolt, I had to make new ones from Uberti parts, and shorten the lug to back off enough for the larger cylinder diameter.