Old Time Saddle - Begginning an adventure

[Flinch Morningwood]

Well, we talk enough about gun leather here I thought I might open up another topic...

I have a friend who rides and is after me to make an "old time" saddle...he has found some pictures in "Cowboys and Trappings of the Old West" of some saddles he likes...mostly the Northern plains versions...

I have never built a saddle before (And he knows this) but have been leatherworking for about 15 years and haven't found anything I haven't been able to figure out (yet)...

I have ordered a copy of SADDLEs by Russel Beatie as a starting point.  I have heard that the Saddle Making Series By Al Stohlman is pretty good...does anyone have first hand knowledge of it?   Any other books people might recommend?

Any pards out there with experience in this type of this want to allow me to bounce questions off them as they arise?

I am kind of excited about this but want to make sure I do my homework and have an someone to go to with questions...

[cowboywc]

Howdy Little Al
I have made one slick fork saddle. It is a pony size. I am ordering a full size tree today for the saddle contest
in Sheridan in May.
I have many books and videos on saddle making and that was a mistake for my first time. Get one and that way
you won't get confused by many different views. I like Bill Gomers video the best.
Hope this helps.
WC

[will ghormley]

Hey Little Al,

While I learned the ins and outs of saddle makin' by repairing modern ranch saddles on the ranches I worked, I never built a modern saddle till I was commissioned to reproduce Roy Roger's saddle for Happy Trails Foundation.  I've never watched a video or taken a class, but I have tore apart real old west saddles to see how they are made.  Modern saddles are a whole different breed from the real Old West Stock Saddle.  Stock saddles of the Cattle Drive Era till the end of the Century were made so they could be repaired on the trail with a rock and a pocket knife.  Modern stock saddles are made so they can be made fast and inexpensive, (if there is any such thing as an inexpensive saddle).

I've talked several fellas through makin' thier own Old West saddles.  I reckon I could help you out if you find yourself in a pinch.  Take a look at some of the saddles on my website.  On the home page you'll find a box along the left hand side labeled "Saddles" or somethin' like that.  There are also some saddles under the "T.V. and Movie" box.  If you have any questions, drop me a line.

Will

www.willghormley-maker.com

[Gun Butcher]

Little Al,
I have a vhs tape by Dusty Johnsonthat covers construction and repair If you are interested I would be happy to send it to you. PM me with your address . I would like to see someone get some use out of it since I have already gotten mine.

[will ghormley]

For over five years I've been tryin' to put together a How-To DVD and full-size saddle pattern on buildin' Old West saddles, (ideally, I would have at least four different styles of saddles, based loosly on the saddle styles of the 1860s, 1870s, 1880s and 1890s).  It takes so much time and so much money, all's I've gotten so far is frustrated.  DVDs are the way to go, since you can work at your own pace, in your own shop, and get your tools and supplies as you need them.

At one point I was thinkin' about holdin' a two week class in the old New Mexico state prison for folks who wanted to make authentic saddles for the growin' Western movie industry in NM.  It just ends up being too expensive, not only to attend a class, but to hold a class.

I would be interested to know how many folks out there are seriouse about makin' their own, authentic, Old West saddle.  Would you like to just buy a DVD, or would you want to take a class in person?

I think it would be kind'a fun to have a saddle-makin' rondy-voo.  Everyone would come with their tools, supplies, campin' equipment and we'd throw up a little tent city at the end of some public access road in some BLM land.  For two weeks we'd camp, work on saddles and swat flies.  In the end, even if you didn't get your saddle done, you would'a seen it done and maybe taken pictures of how someone else did it.  Everyone would pay for their own gear, supplies, tools and a stypend to pay for the instructor's gas and beans, (not the same thing!).  The hassel would be portable work table and what-not, but I think it would be a hoot!  But that's just me.  I'm not overly attached to my indoor plumbin'.

Will

[Gun Butcher]

Will, I got myself an old bearclaw rig that was ruined in a wreck God knows how long ago and started from there.  Had to rebuild the tree and all. Between that "Saddles" book that was mentioned earlier and Dusty Johnsons tape it only took me 6 years to muddle thru it. But an old boy up in Montana seemed to like it and paid me about half what it was worth. Oh well, It wasn't the money anyway and it made at least 2 people happy. I just wish I had taken some pictures, never thought of it at the time.

[litl rooster]

Will I think they already have that rendevous at ELKO...


Remember the horse when you get to the building part, it's more important than the rider, unless you don't mind walking and carring your custom built saddle.

[Quick Fire]

Will, you can count me in on being interested in both the dvd and the outdoor class.

[Icebox Bob]

I'll be watching this thread closely.  I have just started thinking seriously about making a saddle.  I've got a big fella - half percheron who I can't get a western saddle to fit properly and it finally occurred to me, maybe I should go down this road.

Icebox

[crossdraw]

Will
I would be interested also. I have a older trail saddle that is worn out. I thought about disassembling it and making new parts using the originals as patterns but I am sure there are several areas where I will need help.

The saddle fits my horse well and I hate to throw it away.

[Slowhand Bob]

Will, as a pard who has more than one copy, sell a few along the way, of most every plan you have available, yes to all.  I would definitely like to see printed plans as well, you throw so many tips and tales in to boot.  Shux, you might even get a deal with your tree maker to help with the house payments!  Please keep us posted if your idea develops. 

[Buck Stinson]

In the mid 1980's, I reproduced a couple of saddles to offer in our catalog.  One was an 1875 period E.L. Gallatin #2 Half Breed and the other was an 1880 period F.A. Meanea #2 Texas.  Although these saddles were only 5 years apart in vintage, they were both distinctly different in style.  I think you should first start with a time period and saddle style of the period you want duplicated.  Saddles were changing rapidly between 1870 and 1900, so it is important to pick a saddle that matches the era.  The tree is probably one of the most important items when correctly reproducing a saddle.  If you don't start out with the right tree for the period, it makes no difference what model saddle you make, it won't be correct.  When Gallatin and Meanea were making the saddles I reproduced, Frank Meanea's brother Theodore was a saddle tree maker in Denver.  Most of the trees used by these two saddle shops were purchased from the Theodore Meanea Saddle Tree Co.  Because of the tree, the Cheyenne saddles were quite differnt from others of the same period and by todays standard these are considered  the classic Texas trail saddles.  The horns were 4 to 4 1/2" finished with a button top and short neck.  The front edge of the gullet had a lip that curved upward to help hold the wide crossover strap on the Sam Stagg rigging.  These trees only had a 4" cantel and although we see them as high back saddles, they were nothing like the later shovel cantle with wide swells, like those used in the new Jesse James movie.  Those saddle were nearly 20 years off the mark.  I had special trees made for my saddles, patterned from an original Meanea I had in the collection.  We put semi-quarter horse bars on all of these trees, so they would fit most of todays horses.   The manufacturer was able to widen out the gullet by 3/4" and yet never changed the outside shape or appearance from that of the original tree.   Both of these saddles were slick fork, Sam Stagg rigged half-seats.  The Gallatin had no side jockeys and a small round rear jockey that fit close up against the back of the cantle.  The Meanea saddle had side jockeys and sguare rear jockeys that covered most of the skirt top.  Both had large square skirts, typical of the long distance trail driving saddles of the period. 

If you want to see good photos and read about the history of these saddles, there are three books that you must have.  The first one has been mentioned and that's "Saddles" by Russell Beatie.  The second is "They Saddled the West" by Rice and Vernam and the third is "The Cheyenne Saddle" by Jim Laird.  You may have trouble finding a couple of these but they are available and highly sought after.  Good luck.

Adios,
Buck 

[will ghormley]

Hey Crossdraw, NEVER throw away a saddle!

As for stylistic changes in saddles.  Saddle styles changed rapidly because of several different forces:  1.  Introduction of new (old) styles into a new reagion.  An example would be how the Texas saddles forever influance saddle makers of the plains at the begining of the Cattle Drive Era.  2.  Regional differnces.  Example, the short-necked horns of Texas where the underbrush required short lariets used "hard and fast" tied to the horn, compared to the long elegant necks and relitively small horns of California where open spaces allowe for "dally" ropin'.  3.  Adaptations because of changes in useage.  One example would be the wide stirrup leathers that replaced the narrow stirrup leathers before the Cattle Drive Era.  Narrow stirrup leathers were fine when you were working the home range, but when they gave out in the middle of no where on a thousand mile cattle drive, that really sucked!  Another drastic change would be the adaptation of the Cattle Drive Era stock saddle, to the uses of the large static ranch era at the end of the 1890s.  This saw a specialization in saddles for the roundups, with plenty of ropin' - and for bronc breakin', with the bear-traps and freak forks.  4.  Saddle Fads.  Just like autos, saddles first expressed the individuality of the makers and users.  The Cheyenne roll had some practical application as a handle, and perhaps, to a lesser extent, to blunt the trauma to the tail-bone when one landed on the cantle, (am I the only one who has done that?).  However, it wasn't long before it was exagerated and embellished to extreams.

Add to this regional stylistic differences.  Structural requirements for specific ranges.  Availability of materials, personal preferences of specific saddle makers, and you have an endless parade of saddle structures.  And, when studying surviving saddles, you have to remember, these are the saddles that weren't used to death.  Poor saddle designs survived in some cases because they weren't comfortable to use.  They were stored, and perhaps handed down from one generation to the next as a treasured heirloom of their cowboy forefather.  The fact of the matter may have been the saddle was an uncomfortable hunk of dead skin and dry wood that would raise blisters on a rhino's butt.  The saddle the ol' cowboy used, he used to the end.  Nothin' left of it to recommend its preservation to the casual observer.  These are the true treasures that are lost to time.

Now, as soon as a saddle expert says something definitive about saddles, there are twenty other saddle experts who can prove he's full of beans.  Soon, all the trees have been pee'd on and a fella can't say anything without startin' a dog fight.  One thing I have found studying historical artifacts; there is almost always a contradiction to anything anyone can say.  So, when talkin' about saddles, I try to take into consideration I don't know much.  When listenin' to others, I understand they face the same limitations, but may have access to resources I don't have.  So, I always assume I can learn something new.  I learn a lot this way.

Will

[crossdraw]

Hi Will
I bought this saddle used at Veach's. It is worn pretty well and has been exposed to mold and I can't get it clean. Do you think a person with basic leather skills could accomplish this project?

[Buck Stinson]

I'll have to agree to a certain point, but the fact is saddle makers like Meanea, Gallatin, the Collins brothers and many of the earlier  makers, turned out a top notch product in every respect.  We know this simply by the number of surviving examples.  I think they survive because of the quality, not because they didn't work and for that reason never used.  They were made from the finest material available and the fact that even used up saddles still exist, is a testament to the quality of the product.  The experience I have gathered, comes from years of collecting vintage saddles and doing restoration work for private collections and museums.   Saddles of this quality were not just regional, but spread throught-out the west.  

All of the above mentioned shops had catalog photo cards used to promote their product.  A saddle could be ordered by anyone, anywhere who wanted or could afford one.  We know that some of the large outfits like Main & Winchester in San Francisco, actually had drummers with wagons loaded to the hilt traveling to remote areas in the mountain states, selling gear and taking orders for more.   In the mid to late 1860's, E. L. Gallatin  sent freight wagons full of saddles and tack from his shop in Denver, to the Montana gold fields.  He did the same thing again in the mid 1870's, after he had established his shop in Cheyenne.  This time his marketing targets were the ranchers in the Big Hole and Deerlodge valleys.  To this day, some of that gear still exists on those old ranches.   Finding material wasn't a problem and could be purchased from any of the suppliers of the day.  If you had a railroad or freight line running close by, it was easy to get any of the material necessary to build saddles and other leather gear.  

I agree that you can certainly learn by listening to others.  Unfortunately, all of the old saddle makers and the folks who used their gear, are gone.   I've never done repair work on modern saddles, because it doesn't interest me.  However, I have learned a lot from the things I collect.    

Adios,
Buck  

[will ghormley]

Hey Crossdraw,

Is it a Veach saddle, or did you just get it at Veach's?  If it is a Veach, you should do what ever you can to save it.  If it's not a Veach, tear it apart and make patterns from the parts.  With basic leather working skills, almost anyone can re-build a saddle.  Pay attention to where the leather is skived down and other details like that, and you'll do just fine.  After all, it's not rocket science.

Will

[crossdraw]

Will
It isn't a Veach saddle, just a older worn out trail saddle.

If I start this project don't be surprised if I show up at your door with a arm full of leather pieces and a tree begging for help 

I will start looking into a shopping list. Thanks for the encouragement.

Hey Little Al
we may need to talk, maybe start a support group 

[cowboywc]

Howdy Will
Let us know when the DVD and patterns is done I want one. Could use it right now
WC

[Flinch Morningwood]

Thanks for all the input here...I hope we can keep it going.

I did go out and buy the Stohlman 3 book set...got it on sale at Tandy's ($99 for all three), I have the "Saddles" book by Beattie and just ordered "They saddled the West" (Found it for $5 on a used book site).  Lot's of great examples....

I would be interested in the get together or the DVD...The "how to" books are pretty good but focus on modern saddles...not a lot of explaination on to do SamStagg rigging, for example.

A quick question - What type bars do you folks who have built these tend to use?  It has been suggested to use Quarter horse or Full QTR horse but what do you use if you build the saddle on spec?

[will ghormley]

Hey Lil' Al,

Simi-Quarterhorse bars are pretty common to fit a wider variety of mounts.  When I order bars I get them thinned and flaired-up at the rear end.  That makes the saddle a little more versital.

A friend of mine who makes trees as well as saddles, is leaning towards making more trees with the bars set at a 93 degree angle, rather than the 90 degree angle used for years.  I've had him make me trees both ways.  I've got two saddles built on the 93 degree angles right now.  I've only had one on a horse.  It didn't seem to roll or slip, so he may be on to somethin'.

Will