What is wrong with Italian clones and their quality?

[Virginia Gentleman]

I find it funny how we all watch Japanese and S. Korean TVs, some of us drive Japanese Toyota trucks, buy French tires for them or load up on tons of Chinese products at Wal-Mart with out a second thought and yet, to some of us the mere mention of one of those Eyetalian or Spagetti guns made in Italy is almost an abomination.  I personally think they are an outstanding value for the quality and price point, yet not all share in my opinion.  If so why?

[Yellowhouse Sam]

The italian clones have come a long way and these days are pretty good.  Early on they developed a poor reputation due to the softness of the internals which tend to wear out and/or break.  They are doing better but still don't use the hardened steel like Ruger does.  Properly tuned and with a good action job current models such as GW, Cimarron, and others will last a long time. A personal gripe, albeit minor to some, is their continued dying the wood stocks to a red color.  Some models are infinitely better than others and you get what you pay for.

[Black Powder]

VG -

I just bought my first gun - Cimarron/Uberti.  I rationalized that I was keeping an American company in business and all their employees, just not any American manufacturers.  I'd've liked to find a new American made replica for $400, of course.

I'd love to someday have a fine USFA, but I cannot afford it.  I don't begrudge USFA for charging as much for their products as they do so they can make their profit and stay in business.  I recognize they have a different cost structure.

Having said the above, I don't know that I've ever bought anything at a Wal-Mart, although I've had to buy my share of stuff from Target, America's second largest distributor of Chinese products.  But there's a bunch of good US citizens making their living with the paychecks they get from both companies.  Everybody needs a job and has to save on what they spend, so we all look for the best deals.

Personally, I think any company that maintains a focus on customer relations is going to succeed.  I'll pay a premium for above standard customer performance.  I still expect a "thank you" instead of a "there ya go." There's plenty of small companies and some large ones that don't put me on hold while my call is rerouted to Pakistan.  Those are the shops & distributors I try to deliberately support.

BP

[Virginia Gentleman]

The italian clones have come a long way and these days are pretty good.  Early on they developed a poor reputation due to the softness of the internals which tend to wear out and/or break.  They are doing better but still don't use the hardened steel like Ruger does.  Properly tuned and with a good action job current models such as GW, Cimarron, and others will last a long time. A personal gripe, albeit minor to some, is their continued dying the wood stocks to a red color.  Some models are infinitely better than others and you get what you pay for.

YH Sam:  Comparing a Ruger to any traditional SAA is like comparing a Tiger tank to a chuck wagon.   Now it seems the internals of most of the Italian clones are of a better steel quality than they were 10 or 20 years ago, but I have had to heat treat a few myself with excellent results.  It would be better if they used some better steel to start with, but that might drive the price way up.  As to the wood grips, yes, I agree that they use heavy varnish or polyurethane over red stain that looks too modern for a SAA.  I strip my wood grips and put on a hand rubbed oil finish over the raw wood.  I use Arrow Wood Finish that gives the wood a natural look with out looking like it was sprayed on.  I prefer the 19th century linseed oil rubbed look to wood grips.  Once this is done the gun looks even better with the period correct finished grips.

[Arcey]

I have a Uberti in the safe that, according to the seller, was acquired by the original owner in the mid seventies. It's running like it has good sense now but it was junk when I got it. Nothing in it will interchange with a new one. Put a lot of work in that one. I usually don't include it in these discussions because it's not one I use much at all and it's 'birth day'. Think that backs Sam's point. 18" barrel, adjustable sights and a detachable stock.

The ones I've picked up starting around mid season '99 have been fairly decent. Change the main springs is about all. The 3" Birdshead I have, I was told, had been thru Uberti's Performance Shop. Hell, I didn't know they had a Performance Shop. I was pulling it apart, unscrewed the upper left grip frame screw, a plunger and a coil spring came flying out. There isn't a flat hand spring in it.

Used a pair of 7 ½" from Taylor's last Saturday. One I bought new and tuned up myself. She ain't bad. The other belonged to a pard that passed a few years ago. I wish I knew what he did to it. He was a better smith than me. That ones slick as greased owl snot on a glass door knob.

All of mine will run all day on Goex.

Again, I'm NOT slamming anyone's choices. All I want out of these revolvers is play time.  If one fouls up on the clock it's no big deal. They rarely do. I remember the last failure well. July of '05. The last shoot at the old range before the developers took it. Bolt spring broke in the 7 ½" I bought from Taylor's.

I'm happy. Would I be comfortable usin' one for concealed carry? No. That's what Glocks are for.

[Virginia Gentleman]

Arcey:

The traditional Single Action Army design is inherently prone to some small parts breakage no matter who makes it and out of and what kind of steel.  Having said that, the parts are usually easily replaced and the guns are not too hard to work on in general. 

[Arcey]

Can't disagree.

With the bolt spring, I was dropped down in shooting order. I shot the stage with a back up then changed it between stages on the tailgate of the truck. Used it the rest of the day. Same spring has been in it ever since.

That revolver has been thru the wars. If it completely gives up next shoot, I've gotten my money's worth.

[Virginia Gentleman]

All things considered, the Italian SAAs I have been hearing about for the most part have been standing up to some serious use by CAS competitors and enthusiasts.  This design was probably not made with CAS matches in mind 135 years ago, yet if put together with decent materials can be a durable performer.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

                              Right on right on V.G. well said Pard

                                                  Ten Wolves 

[Irish Dave]

Lots of good points here.
I guess my take is similar to some, in that the problems I had with Italian revolvers (for the most part) was back in their earlier days.
The first couple of Italian SAA clones I had were pretty bad. Soft and rough internals, sights not set true, stripped screws, "flying" ejector rod housings and the like. Many of my friends who had them had many of the same problems.

But for the most part, that has changed remarkably in my opinion. I believe Uberti makes some very fine guns these days which, with only a modest amount of work, will run hard, fast and reliably -- and at a fraction of the cost of their namesakes.

Maybe a good example is the Japanese. I suspect most of us are old enough to remember when "Made in Japan" was the kiss of death for a product as the quality was poor and Japanese items were largely considered junk. Look where they are today. Electronics, cars and much more. Quality is generally top-shelf and many Japanese items are considered among the best made anywhere in the world.

Guess maybe the same is true of the Italian SAA makers.
I will say that I was never impressed with any of the ASM products and the Pietta's that I had were OK, but not on par with Uberti.

IMHO, the finest main match pistols I own today are Uberti made, even though I have Colts and even Rugers (my OM Vaqueros certainly are well-made and tank tough, but not very historically accurate.)

The bias against them may result from others having less positive experiences than I, but I suspect it's more than likely a "buy American" philosophy at work. Now, that's a good thing, but in my opinion, no one is entitled to my dollars or my business simply because of who they are or where they're from -- that's called the free market. I will always give the USA the advantage provided all else is (even close to being) equal.  I agree with others that Colt needed to get its head out of its arrogant rump years ago and recognize what the market wanted. They have no one to blame but themselves for the beginnings of their own competitors -- from Great Western and Ruger to Uberti and the Italians.

If they wanted to keep all the business for themselves, they should have had the attitude of "What do you want? We'll make it for you." Instead, we got "Here's what we want to make. Hope you like it."

American manufacturers -- just like those from any country -- have an obligation to make a quality product responsive to market demand and at a competitive -- or at least fair -- price. When they do that, they get my business every time. When they don't, they don't.

Aw, that's enough. Probably said too much already.

[Deadeye Don]

Truer words were never spoken Dave.  We all love when you  start talking.      I love my Uberti made guns.

[Virginia Gentleman]

ID:  That was a very good post that was very insightful.  It reminds me of other industries that have unfortunately have not listened to their customers and have lost them to the thoughtful and attentive competition.  Not to make this a pro USFA and anti Colt post, but there too is a perfect example of one company ignoring its customer base and taking them for granted and another that couldn't be more opposite, even bending over backwards to help the customer and making a far superior product.  The Italians, as many have pointed out, made the SAA affordable again for the average person.  To punk down $2600 for a pair of 3rd generation Colts vs $750 for a pair of Uberti Cimarrons makes it a no brainer for the newbie.  I was in a gun store that carries every type of SAA or look alikes.  In a blind handling and examination test with the uninitiated, the USFA came out on top followed closely by the Cimarrons and GW II, it surprised me how indifferent most people were to the 3rd generation Colt and how even the Rugers were praised over the Colt for looks!  The things the people liked about the Italian clones were the standard wood grips and how they balanced in the hand.  When we showed them the prices and roll marks, everyone was very surprised. 

[Yellowhouse Sam]

YH Sam:  Comparing a Ruger to any traditional SAA is like comparing a Tiger tank to a chuck wagon.   Now it seems the internals of most of the Italian clones are of a better steel quality than they were 10 or 20 years ago, but I have had to heat treat a few myself with excellent results.  It would be better if they used some better steel to start with, but that might drive the price way up.  As to the wood grips, yes, I agree that they use heavy varnish or polyurethane over red stain that looks too modern for a SAA.  I strip my wood grips and put on a hand rubbed oil finish over the raw wood.  I use Arrow Wood Finish that gives the wood a natural look with out looking like it was sprayed on.  I prefer the 19th century linseed oil rubbed look to wood grips.  Once this is done the gun looks even better with the period correct finished grips.

Glad to see another fan of Arrow Wood Finish....I love it!  Years ago I order a Shiloh Sharps that had only one coat of tung oil on it and it was disapointing to say the least.  Arrow claims their stuff will go over the top of most anything so I started in hand rubbing several coats over it and came up with an outstanding finish.  Best part is that I didn't remove the wood from the metal either.

[Irish Dave]

Deadeye:  Aw, shucks.....

VG:
Thanks for the kind words. Sometimes I tend to speak my mind and let the chips fall where they may. (It's probably a fault.)

I'd agree with you completely (with one small exception):

To plunk down $2600 for a pair of 3rd generation Colts vs $750 for a pair of Uberti Cimarrons makes it a no brainer for the newbie.

I'd suggest that it's not just for the newbies. I suspect there are many of us who have the wherewithal to buy Colts or USFAs -- or maybe we already have them -- but who still have a hard time finding $800-$900 worth of difference between one of them and a nicely functioning Uberti.

As I mentioned, despite owning 2nd Gen Colts and Rugers, my "best" pair of SAAs are Cimarron Model Ps. I couldn't ask for better quality or reliability from any company. I have recently switched to a pair of Beretta Laramies (Uberti made) and they are the best balanced, most accruate and best "feeling" pistols I've ever owned. Now, I know a lot of that is personal taste and opinion, but I suspect they will also be reliable and dependable in the long run. Time will tell, I suppose.

[Deadeye Don]

I have to tell you that I just got my 44-40 Smoke Wagon.  You know the one slicked up by Cody.  That baby is smooth as butter.  I dont think I have ever handled a revolver yet that is that smooth.  It is even smoother than my USFAs out of the box.  This gun is a prime example of being able to buy an Italian made gun that with a little extra work can be made into a fine shooting iron.  I will bring it to the first shoot of the season.  Regards.  Deadeye.

[Irish Dave]

Sounds cool, DD. Look forward to seein' that new pistola. (And mebbe fondlin' it a little, too.)

[Virginia Gentleman]

Deadeye:  Aw, shucks.....

VG:
Thanks for the kind words. Sometimes I tend to speak my mind and let the chips fall where they may. (It's probably a fault.)

I'd agree with you completely (with one small exception):
I'd suggest that it's not just for the newbies. I suspect there are many of us who have the wherewithal to buy Colts or USFAs -- or maybe we already have them -- but who still have a hard time finding $800-$900 worth of difference between one of them and a nicely functioning Uberti.

As I mentioned, despite owning 2nd Gen Colts and Rugers, my "best" pair of SAAs are Cimarron Model Ps. I couldn't ask for better quality or reliability from any company. I have recently switched to a pair of Beretta Laramies (Uberti made) and they are the best balanced, most accruate and best "feeling" pistols I've ever owned. Now, I know a lot of that is personal taste and opinion, but I suspect they will also be reliable and dependable in the long run. Time will tell, I suppose.

ID:  I speak my mind often as well, so you are in good company on that.  I agree, the price/value difference is not just for newbies when it comes to the better clones like Cimarron, they can and more often are superior to the current supposed "up qualitied" 3rd gen. Colts.  They are short of USFA, but for the averge person getting into CAS or even just shooting them, this may be a case of them being too expensive, eventhough they are the best US made clone out there.  I have Colts and USFAs, but the guns I shoot the most are Cimarron Model Ps.  The US Finished Model Ps are so nice, it is a wonder they can sell them at the price points they do.

[Irish Dave]

VG:

Methinks thou doth speak the truth.

...it is a wonder they can sell them at the price points they do.

SSHHhhhhhhhhh! For heaven's sake, don't let them hear you.

[Colonel Mortimer]

My frst CAS gun was an AWA Peace Keeper with Turbuill finsih. One of the finest shootin irons I've ever had in my hands. Don't even shoot it any more. Just get it out and admire it ever now and agin. I currently shoot a pair of Cimarron Stainless Ps. They rattle a bit and the machining on the internals could be better but after over a thousand rounds they just keep spittin the lead out. Throwd away the wood grips and put on some Buffalo Brothers for the looks. Also have one of Cimarron's 10 inch Buntlines with the Turnbull finishing. Another fine piece. Just comes out for special occasions.

Sure, I'd love to have a Colt. You can feel the difference. But Mercy! The price difference is just too too much.

BTW Virginia Gentleman where can I lay hands on bumper sticker with yer pork eatin Crusader? I'd like to salut alah with a McRibb in a public sorta way.

Colonel Mortimer

[Matthew Duncan]

Agreed.