SAA Experts wanted

[Delgado]

Maybe I´m missing something.

I have two Colts and one Uberti SAA. According to Kuhnhausens Bible (pages 193, 194) the rearward hammer travel is limited by the frames "hand stop surface" and the "hand boss". This should be a reference point for bottom hand fitting.

So far so good. But on all  my three guns the rearward hammer travel is only limited by the backstrap. I think this condition can´t be good for the hand and the ratchet. Kuhnhausen says that handstop mislocations are almost nonexistent in Colt frames.

The problem is, you can´t see what´s going on in there.

Any ideas?

[Fox Creek Kid]

Ubertis have a different cam than Colt & all Colts are NOT hand "tweaked". 

[Coffinmaker]

On most SAAs, Colt included, the grip frame is the only "stop" for rearward hammer travel.  In many guns, Colt included, an over travel stop is necessary to prevent over rotation of the moving parts. 
When setting up SAAs for CAS, we must remember we run these guns harder and faster than ever envisioned by Sam Colt.  Everything has to be fit and adjusted with this in mind. 
If everything is perfect, as the hammer completes it's travel, the trigger has engaged, the bolt is in the cylinder slot and the hand has stopped rotating the cylinder and the chamber is perfectly aligned in battery.  Fat chance on an out of the box anything.  Once all of the above happen, the hammer must be stopped at that point.  Hence, an over travel stop.
Once all of the above have been timed correctly, it's time for the springs ................
Fun ain't it??

Coffinmaker

[Delgado]

Does that mean I`ll have to install an overtravel stop to establish a reference point for bottom hand fitting? Seems to be a good idea and would prevent any wear on ratchet and hand.
But I  can´t see why that job isn´t performed by the "hand boss" and the "handstop surface". Both are existent in all three guns.

Delgado

[Fox Creek Kid]

Trust me, send it to a pro for any repairs unless you absolutely & unequivocally know what you are doing. No offense, but having the Kunhausen books no more makes one a gunsmith than possessing a Steinway makes them a concert pianist. 

[Virginia Gentleman]

Trust me, send it to a pro for any repairs unless you absolutely & unequivocally know what you are doing. No offense, but having the Kunhausen books no more makes one a gunsmith than possessing a Steinway makes them a concert pianist. 

Blahahahahaaaaahhhhaaaaaahhhahaha!!!! Good one!!!! 

[Deadeye Don]

Trust me, send it to a pro for any repairs unless you absolutely & unequivocally know what you are doing. No offense, but having the Kunhausen books no more makes one a gunsmith than possessing a Steinway makes them a concert pianist. 

Damn you are tough!!   

[Delgado]

Trust me, send it to a pro for any repairs unless you absolutely & unequivocally know what you are doing. No offense, but having the Kunhausen books no more makes one a gunsmith than possessing a Steinway makes them a concert pianist. 

FCK,

wouldn´t be a problem, if i lived in a country with pards like Nate Kiowa Jones, Long Hunter, Bob Munden or whomever.

Here in Germany, the ordinary gunsmith knows all about traditional hunting guns like drillings etc. But a pistolsmith is quite rare, and if he wanted to specialize on western guns, he would need a second job to put food on the table.
We have one or two guys who are trying, but I have very little confidence in their work. So I´m on my own.

It´s by far not the first time I´m taking apart an SAA. I have the proper tools, and never did anything without exactly knowing what to do. Although the SAA lockwork is no rocket sience, the hammer travel problem is the last thing I don´t understand.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Delgado

[Fox Creek Kid]

Although the SAA lockwork is no rocket sience...

Sie sind Raketewissenschaftler?    Actually, working on the cam & the bolt of a SAA or Colt clone is difficult. I watched one of two gunsmiths qualified in my state to work on these this very day give an action job to an Uberti conversion of mine. I helped him but he polished the cam and had to squeeze the bolt back to spec as some Italian "cheated" in the factory & bent the bolt legs too far apart. He completely duburred everything as well & chamfered the forcing cone. All in all, about two hours of intense non-stop skilled work. It's not real easy as you have to constantly check everything in the gun after polishing UNLESS a person has years of experience and knows EXACTLY what they are doing. The problem is that few do know how and it is not something you can just read out of a book & use rote memory (initially).

Es gibt ein gunsmith in Österreich Namen Nedbal.  Ich verstehe, dass er sehr gut ist (Ich habe gehört). Es gibt andere Deutsch, die im ,,STORM" Forum hier schreiben. Ein ist ,,Long Johns Wolf" herunter und er ist ein guter Mann und würde sicher Ihnen helfen.

[Doc Sunrise]

Hi Delgado,

There is another point to consider about Hammer overtravel.  In Kuhnhausen's manual on page 166, Notes 8 & 9 talk about trigger length in relation to the hammer.  If for some reason the trigger is fitted too short, it makes the hammer full cock engagement occur too early, and after the hammer's rotation stops rearward by the frame and hand cam, it now must come forward to re-engage the sear of the trigger at the full cock ledge.  Final assemblers used 1/32" (about .030") as the max measurement allowed for hammer overtravel.  Anything more than that was rejected.  Every attempt was apparently made to keep the trigger as long as possible as to prevent hammer overtravel. 

As they say in any language there is always more than one way to skin a cat, but in your case the end result may not end up the same way as a cat in either case as once metal is removed, its gone, unless you have a gunsmith to do some welding.

Good Luck, I hope this may help you.

[Delgado]

Doc,

I´m pretty aware of the results, when changing various dimensions of action parts.

Maybe I didn´t manage to find the right words, but the timing on my three SAAs is perfect. It took countless hours of reading the Kuhnhausen book, two new bolts, one new hand, and just a few hours of handfitting.

The problem : with the hammer in full cock position ,the hammer travel is stopped by the hand and the ratchet. With disassembled cylinder it is limited by the backstrap, and with disassembled backstrap it still moves a little further. There it stops at the point where the "hand boss" meets the frames "hand stop surface" (far too late).  And I never touched both surfaces.

That means: when cocking the hammer real fast, I put a lot of stress on the hand, the ratchet, the bolt head and the cylinder locking slots. Of course that´s not good for maintaining the fine timing.

@ FCK: Raketenwissenschaft ist nur mein Hobby (just kidding)

Delgado

[Doc Sunrise]

Ok Delgado,

As I believe I understand that you are saying, the timing sequence is timed out correctly with events occurring when they should, but the hammer's rotation is not stopped at the end of this sequence by the hand boss hitting home, which is causing the hand, ratchet, and bolt to absorb the shock of stopping the hammer, which may at times of fast cycling be excessive.

I guess I must yield to an experienced gunsmith here because of a couple of things. 

First, Kuhnhuassen stated that the rearward travel of the hammer is "limited" by the hand stop surface and the hand boss, and as such the bottom hand fitting reference point.  He does not state that this is meant to be the hammer's rotational stopping force. 

Secondly, if it is or not, you are looking for a positive stopping force at the time when the timing sequence is concluded, which is the hammer engaging the trigger sear at the full cock ledge at the same time the hand has finished rotation of the cylinder and at the same time the bolt locks itself into the cylinder's bolt notch.  The other problem is going to be once you have found the properly timed area to be a hammer rotational stopping force, after you pound it to death with fast cycling and something wears, the whole sequence of events will be out of time again.

You need not only the advice of a gunsmith with knowledge of Colt's SAA operation, but a more current gunsmith who is knowledgeable in that operation under the stress of current day Cowboy shooting, which the Colt SAA was not originally built to do.

You asked for SAA Experts, which in your reading Kuhnhaussen's book you saw his comment on Experts.

The thing you are missing is a good gunsmith!  

[Fox Creek Kid]

That means: when cocking the hammer real fast, I put a lot of stress on the hand, the ratchet, the bolt head and the cylinder locking slots. Of course that´s not good for maintaining the fine timing.

Ihre Einschätzung ist richtig, jedoch der ursprüngliche Entwurf ist für ,,Karl May" schießend nicht gebaut!    Alle ist klar, Herr ,,von Braun"? 

[Delgado]

Ok Delgado,

As I believe I understand that you are saying, the timing sequence is timed out correctly with events occurring when they should, but the hammer's rotation is not stopped at the end of this sequence by the hand boss hitting home, which is causing the hand, ratchet, and bolt to absorb the shock of stopping the hammer, which may at times of fast cycling be excessive.

You got it. That´s my problem.

First, Kuhnhuassen stated that the rearward travel of the hammer is "limited" by the hand stop surface and the hand boss, and as such the bottom hand fitting reference point.  He does not state that this is meant to be the hammer's rotational stopping force. 

What else should stop the hammer?

Secondly, if it is or not, you are looking for a positive stopping force at the time when the timing sequence is concluded....

That´s right. Therefore I´m planning to install a hammer stop screw underneath the top of the mainspring. But I´d like to know what´s the "positive stopping force" on your guns ?

You asked for SAA Experts, which in your reading Kuhnhaussen's book you saw his comment on Experts.

The thing you are missing is a good gunsmith!   

I should have better known. When refering to Mr. Kuhnhausen, the term "experts" is quite a bad choice.
One of my favorite sentences in the book is: "...gunsmiths are people too."

The lack of a good gunsmith, who is familiar with SAAs, that´s my main problem.

Here in Germany, I don´t want to pay someone for learning (and probably making mistakes) on my guns. This can be done by myself.

Delgado

[Delgado]

... jedoch der ursprüngliche Entwurf ist für ,,Karl May" schießend nicht gebaut!    Alle ist klar, Herr ,,von Braun"? 

We all know that, but what are the options? Stop shooting cowboy style?  

[Travis Morgan]

Blahahahahaaaaahhhhaaaaaahhhahaha!!!! Good one!!!! 

    A cat havin' kittens in the oven don't make 'em biscuits!

[Coffinmaker]

Delgado,

Form what you describe, the gun needs an "overtravel stop, under the main spring.  When you look under the main spring when the hammer is at full cock (trigger guard frame must be on the gun) there is a space between the spring and trigger guard frame. The correct area for the stop is directly over the rear of the trigger guard loop where the trigger guard is at it's thickest.  The frame is drilled and tapped for an 8-32 set screw or a metric equivalent.  The screw stops the spring from traveling down and limits the rear travel of the hammer.  Once installed, the screw is carefully filed down until all movement ends just about 2 thousands after all lock parts are in place.

Coffinmaker

[Santa Fe River Stan]

Delgado,
I think that if you keep reading your book you will find a passage in there that states hammer stops are an incorrect fix for a timing problem(it states this in the book about Ruger's). The bottom shelf of the hand completes the turning of the cylinder until the bolt falls into place. When that occurs your hammer will not pull back any further as the cylinder is locked into place by the bolt. If the gun is timed correctly the trigger will engage the full cock notch just as or slightly before the bolt drops into the cylinder notch.

So if the hand is turning the cylinder and the bolt locks the cylinder in place thus preventing the hand/hammer from moving any further what is a hammer stop going to accomplish in a gun that is timed correctly? Nothing.....now if you want to have the hammer stop to remove stress from the hand then you will have to have it stop the rearward travel of the hammer BEFORE the bolt completely drops into the cylinder notch thus relying on inertia to complete the cylinder rotation. In most instances this would not be an issue unless the hammer stop was set to stop well before the bolt dropped and the hammer was pulled back very slowly. However it CAN be a safety issue as it would be possible to arrive at full cock and have the cylinder not completely locked into place when the trigger is pulled.

Most cowboys will be better served with a correctly timed gun. My suggestion is to follow the steps listed in the for checking the timing and making adjustments as recommended to create a solid, tight, lockup everytime.

I found the book very enlightening on many levels. There is nothing new being done to these guns. As stated in the book, this desgin has been around for over 100 years and there is only so much you can do with the geometry. Good luck!

Stan

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

hOWDY pARDS

            I check the lock up on all my single action , and then I use a range rod on each cylinder as it is rotated and locked up and the hammer down , if the range rod passes through the barrel and cylinder smoothly, I know everything is fine , if it doesn't then I know I have a problem with my timming , this has proved to be an easy way for to keep tabs on how my guns are doing.

                                                      tEN wOLVES 

[Fox Creek Kid]

...if it doesn't then I know I have a problem with my timming(sic)...

Not necessarily. It's rare but sometimes a chamber is out of spec for alignment. If so then you have to get a new cylinder if an opened up forcing cone won't remedy any accuracy problems. More common on older Italian guns were bolt notches spaced unevenly. You either had to buy a new cylinder or pay someone big bucks to weld 'em up and recut 'em.