? about Second Hand gun

[J.R. Logan]

Howdy All, I am new to NCOWS and in talking with some of the shooters it was mentioned that a pocket pistol or derringer used to be the second pistol instead of another main match pistol.  I find this to be a great idea but do not see it spelled out in the rules that way.  So what I was wounding was:

1) How many other shooters think that the second hand gun should be a pocket pistol or derringer?
2)  How many like the second hand gun to be another main match pistol?

Thanks for the feedback on this.

J. R. Logan

[River City John]

Occasionally there will be a pocket pistol called for in a Main match scenario. It depends on the club. Many have gotten away from the pocket pistol.
Most clubs, though, have relegated the pocket pistol to a side match status, along with the derringer, if used at all.

I would shoot with your rifle and sidearm for the coming year, either in Working Cowboy or eventually The Originals, if that class be your leaning.
Take a year to look around and get a lot of ideas. Most people would probably steer you towards getting another Main match pistol before spending money on a pocket pistol. There is a lack of appropriate Derringers available on the market that satisfy NCOWS standards for safety and authenticity.

What will be helpful, because most clubs realize that quite a few people don't have a pp, often if written into a scenario the pp is provided along with ammunition. And there will always be pards who will loan you one if needed. This will give you a good chance to experience some different examples.

I've only been in NCOWS for 10 years, and there was never any notion that a pp was universally thought of as the logical 2nd sidearm in that time. No wording to that effect in the By-Laws during that time.

The rosy glow of reminiscing about 15 years ago? Well, 15 years ago pp were fairley cheap and available. Remember too it will likely be another ongoing expense - smaller calibre that you'll have to buy additional cartridges or reloading materials for. Much easier to look for a second mm gun in the same calibre as the one you already own.
But, like many, it's amazing what creeps into the gunsafe over a period of time. If you're just starting out such that you only have the bare bones minimum, you're lucky. Enjoy the coming shooting season and get a feel for what interests you before building up your armament, if you can.
RCJ
   

[Dusty Tagalon]

I have a Colt New Pocket, & a New Police. Both are 6 shot 32s, I have used them both as main match guns. At this time, I can only use the New Pocket as a main match gun. The forcing cone was split, only replacement barrel I could find was a 6" nickel.

Dusty

[Irish Dave]

JR:

In my experience (about 10-11 years as well) with NCOWS, the PP was not intended to serve as the second handgun for matches. Nonetheless, there was a time when many scanarios were written for rifle, shotgun, 2 revolvers and  PP.

Of course, the 4-gun classes still exist as Smokeless Duelist and Shootist and BP Duelist and Shootist. Often times there would also be a PP included in the course of fire. As RCJ correctly advised, these days the PP seems to be less prominent that it once was and typically a PP/ammo is provided on those stages where one is required. Of course, they are usually always still found in the side match portion of the competition.

Another issue that has probably led somewhat to the decline in PP usage has been the surge in the popularity of the Working Cowby class. As a two-gun category (rifle and 1 revolver) a PP is rarely used, as I recall, in this class.

I don't recall any scenario in which a PP was considered the same as a full-sized revolver for the purpose of Main Match shooting.
If others know differently, I'm sure they'll let us know.

[French Jack]

Dave and J.R.-- the only thing that comes to mind would be IF someone in the Originals elected to use a PP for a main match pistol as part of their chosen persona.  So far that has not happened that I am aware of. 

[Deadeye Don]

I would like to see the pocket pistol being used more.  I just got an 1849 with an RandD cylinder and would love to use it at some point.  The PP was used at the Eastern Regionals in at least one stage if I recall.  I still prefer working cowboy, but would like to "mix it up" some.  I wonder if there will be any stages written for PPs at the Nationals this year.

[Irish Dave]

Thanks, Jack. Good point.

[Books OToole]

Hmmmmm....a detective shoot requiring a main match pistol and a pocket pistol.

That has got my evil imagination perculating.

Books

[Fox Creek Kid]

I don't recall any scenario in which a PP was considered the same as a full-sized revolver for the purpose of Main Match shooting.
If others know differently, I'm sure they'll let us know.

You're dead on there, I.D. It was used (as far as I know) as a supplemental weapon on some stages. I believe it was NTR (when they were NCOWS affiliated) that first did away with the PP altogether. And who can forget the infamous "box" debacle re what is & is not a PP. Talk about a can of worms! 

Just my two cents but when stages require PP's you usually see a plethora of "suicide special" free-spinning, POS and the cornucopia of incumbent problems therein. Don't get me wrong as I like PP's, however the problem was (is) that people were (are) using old Iver Johnsons, H&R's & other assorted POS that should have long ago been relegated to the scrap heap. An interesting point brought up by an NCOWS member (Frog69) was to "recategorize" the PP's into say a "belly gun" or "hide out" category and correct any errors of the past. I always thought that was a great concept and something that should be considered by the powers that be in the future.

The "debacle" was when I believe it was Ottawa Creek Bill who mentioned that why is a Colt Pocket Navy with say a 5" barrel not allowed yet a Colt SAA Sheriff's Model is. It was a valid point and both sides had convincing arguments. I think with the great people we now have in office that a satisfactory conclusion could be reached here to the satisfaction of all. Maybe we need a "belly gun" and/or "hideout/gun" classification. Constructive feedback?

[Irish Dave]

FCK:

I'll hafta agree. It seemed to me like the best solution was to re-label those pistols into a "belly-gun" or "hideout" category as you mentioned. Now, true, we'd then have to define "belly-gun" but I have a feeling that might be substantially easier than trying to define Pocket Pistols and do it in a way that somehow differentiated them from other (manufactured or altered to be) concealable firearms ... like the Belly guns.

I do remember the great "box" debacle (a sincere and noble -- but unfortunately unworkable -- attempt at a solution).

If we used a Belly Gun or Hideout label, then frame size and barrel length etc would become somewhat moot. Perhaps then you might be able to define these based on overall length. Frame size really wasn't sufficient to define them: What about, say,  a 38 DA Merwin or Iver Johnson etc with a long (maybe even 7.5") barrel? Small frame yes, but hardly pocket-sized. On the other hand, barrel length wasn't sufficient either .. ie. the large framed SAA with a 2.5" tube? Short enough to conceal -- even in a lot of pockets -- but hardly small framed as was the original PP intent.

I agree it would be nice to untimately find a solution to this that would be fair and equitable.
Certainly still worth discussing.

[Fox Creek Kid]

You know what, Joss. I forgot completely that you were the fella that proposed that!! And I was sitting right by you.    Forgive me. What were the particulars again, please.

[Books OToole]

As it was boiled down;

Take a 8 1/2 X 11 inch sheet of paper.

Fold it in half;  Making it 8 1/2 X 5 1/2 inches

If the pistol fits on that folded paper, without hanging over;  it would a be legal pocket pistol.

The complaints were the Colt "Pocket Navy" still would not be a legal pocket pistol.
&
My cut-down Remington with a 4 1/2 in. barrel would be legal.

From there the worms were out of the can.


Books

[Books OToole]

Joss;

Did your proposal utilize the box?
I remember my Peacemaker clone with a 4 inch barrel fit the box, as did my cut-down Remington. (The Remy has a bobbed grip witch compensated for the 4 1/2 in. barrel.)

I think Gary Strand aka Ol' Gabe came up the folded piece of paper.  His idea was to keep it simple and prevent every posse from being required to build a box to NCOWS specifications.

Books

[Fox Creek Kid]

The complaints were the Colt "Pocket Navy" still would not be a legal pocket pistol.
&
My cut-down Remington with a 4 1/2 in. barrel would be legal.

Uh, Books the legal limit as it now stands is a 4" barrel max. I thought. 

                                              "Pocket Pistol"

"Any approved hand gun with 4 inch barrel or shorter; any approved pistol caliber".

[Lone Gunman]

The results as copied from the minutes of the 25th Congress (viewable on our website HERE):

Item No. 6  Motion to add the following definition of "Pocket Pistol" to the NCOWS Rules and Regulations: "Acceptable pocket pistols are restricted to the following specifications.1 Small frame, up to 6 ½" or less(as in Colt Pocket Police or S&W tip-up) .22calibur through .38calibur. 2. Large/medium frame,4" or less (as in Colt storekeeper, Sheriffs'model and Colt Lightning) .38caliber through .45caliber. Or a revolver cut down and or modified to be carried specifically as a concealable pocket pistol (such as the documented 1860 Colt snub nosed 2" barrel .44Army). 3. Any original (pre-1899 design) DA or SA originally designed or modified to be carried specifically as a pocket pistol or hideout revolver".(P Ersland/R Chenault)  Previous Question Called (Glenn/Williams) Yes: Coop, Ellison, Ersland, (Chenault for Fulcher), Scott, Spanton, (6). No: Alvestad, Boeke, Brannon, Bursovsky, Carpenter, Chenault, Covert, (Burley for Garnatz), Glenn, Gindulis, Hartwig, Irons, C Rollins, N Rollins, Tatham, Thorpe, Torrence, Warnick, Weber,( 19) Abstain: Williams (1)  Motion Fails

I was appointed "Guardian of the Box"     at the end of that meeting and have just retrieved it from my reloading bench. It measures 5 3/8" X 9 3/4".  It was built by Jay Weber and I believe he used a 4" barreled SAA or Vaquero as the model.  While the actual dimensions may need some refinement the principle is both sound & practical.  It replaces the need to define various barrel/frame/caliber combinations to a simple test of 'does it fit in the box?'.  This particular box will also hold a small frame gun with a 6 or 6 1/2" barrel.

The 1/2 sheet of copy paper (8 1/2" X 5 1/2")  is the same theory without the need of carpentry skills. Here's my 3" Sheriff's model on 1/2 sheet of paper. A Merwin,Hulbert pocket pistol with a 5 1/2" barrel will also fit on this paper as will a Colt Pocket Model with a 4" barrel.

[Trap]

  Joss; Just because someone voted no before dosen't mean they were against the concept. There was some minor problem with it and at this time I don't recall what that was. I think that if we need a new ruling on the PP, and we might, I think the idea is a good one.

[Books OToole]

Uh, Books the legal limit as it now stands is a 4" barrel max. I thought. 

                                              "Pocket Pistol"

"Any approved hand gun with 4 inch barrel or shorter; any approved pistol caliber".

And there in lays the connumdrum.  My cut-down Remy should not be a legal pocket-pistol. [Even though a previous Judge approved it.]
In my opinion a 4 in. Peacemaker should not be legal either.

Thus the can of worms.

I think Joss' proposal has merit.  However some members of the congress though it to complicated and legal-eez sounding.

Books

[Deadeye Don]

What about a 3 inch store keeper model peacemaker?

[Trap]

  If this is revisited I think we would have to stay with the 4" or shorter bbl on a large frame revolver because it has been an approved PP, therefore some may have purchased one to use as a PP. I do not believe that a firearm which has been approved should ever be removed from the appvoved list.

[Fox Creek Kid]

We should all kick ourselves for not bringing this up a month ago as it appears that the time is ripe for some sort of progress here. If I'm not mistaken, there is (or used to be) a way to add an addendum within thirty days of a congressional meeting if a majority of the officers vote to allow it(?).