frame strength

[eagles]

Can anyone tell me if there is ANY more strength in the iron frame over the steel frame over the brass frame Henry rifle , or is it  all cosmetic ?

[St. George]

In the metalurgical scheme of things - Brass preceded Iron and both were superseded by Steel.

As far as the Brass and Iron frames are concerned - both will give good service, so long as you keep to the ammunition's factory specs or lower.

Steel will be 'harder' - thus, more resilient - but in a toggle-link action, you shouldn't be using high-powered/high pressure loads.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[eagles]

Thanks Vaya . While I would not advocate high power loads in a toggle link action , when I was a kid my father got me a italian 66 Brass frame 38 special as a gift . Not knowing any better I went to the gun store and bought 158 grain  38 special high velocity loads . I shot them in that gun for three years with out a hitch and finnally sold the gun . I shot hundreds of them ,  before that thinking  if it was not a reload and sold in the store it had to be ok !!!! I hear the 45 colts are loaded to below black powder pressure so wonder what smokeless  reload would equal a full power blackpowder load in a 45 for a steel frame henry ? 

[St. George]

Any factory loads are loaded to factory specs, and that information's available in several threads, and also in Barnes' 'Cartridges of the World'.

You can pick up a copy at most of the Barnes & Nobles - though some Public Libraries will also have them.

Gun shops sell what's popular - and often don't have a clue about lower-range bullets, so before you buy - ask.

The steel frame henry will be warranted for factory smokeless .45 Colt.

Incidentally - the 'vaya' comes from the shortened version of 'Vaya con Dios' - 'go with God'...

The name's to the left of your panel.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[eagles]

Sorry St.  George . So does this mean that the high power pistol  45 colt factory loads would be ok in the steel frame Henry ? What I was thinking was the normal factory load was a dog , meant  to be shot in old revolvers of questionable strength . Then we have the 45 factory plus p or hot loads which I was thinking would be for  more modern revolver like a Ruger etc . So in the middle might be a load up from the dog , lower than the modern load that would be closer to orriginal velocities and  pressures etc. Now if this rifle can handle the hot 45 factory pistol loads that would be GREAT !!! i made a post ellswhere that when I was a kid my father gave me an Italian model 66 in 38 special . I promptly went to the store and bought 38 special 158 grain jacketed sp hot loads . Shot them in that gun for years , hundreds of them . Never had a single problem and never knew I wasnt suposed to . The Gun came with no taboos on it .   

[St. George]

There are factory .45 Colt loads - then there are factory loads meant for the Rugers and Thompson-Centers.

Don't confuse the two.

Your Henry's warranty won't be in effect after you've reduced it to component parts by shooting a maximum load, so use the 'standard' round, and you'll be fine, and you'll see that it's got more than enough power and inherent accuracy to do a solid job.

C&WAS distances don't require a maximum effort and you'll find that many shooters modify their weapons to feed .45 Schofield reliably.

The Henry rifle in it's original form handled  decent 'pistol' cartridge - and did so for a long time, but forcing it to handle a stouter round isn't going to be doing the action any favors.

You had good luck with your Model 66 - but the Model 66 was the product improvement of the Henry, and a stronger weapon.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy!

Eagles, go with St. George's suggestions.  Yes, the Iron frame Henry WILL be stronger than the "brass."

Here's a few tiddly-bits of info that may help.  Back in the late '90s, I got into this CAS thing.  I had always thought that the brass framed guns looked awesome - but I wondered about their strength.  First, I'll point out this: the Henrys and 1866s AREN'T brass - they're made of "Artillery Bronze." (one of the names)  It is a fair bit stronger than plain ol' brass.  Second, I looked into reports regarding these guns and found a product report written by one of the reigning SASS top guns - sorry, but I forget his name.  Any-hoo, he stated that his rounds were loaded to normal specs with smokey-less powder.  This was before the current SASS (general) trend to fire sub-strength "pop-tink" loads, so his loads replicated standard smokeless factory loads.  He convinced me when he stated that he had - at the time of writing - fired over 75,000 rounds - with no appreciable stretching of the receiver or problems OTHER than the normal wear and tear of a gun fired that much!  By the way, he DIDN"T work for Uberti or any of the ammo manufacturers. 


Be VERY careful to heed St.G's warning about the "hot" rounds, intended ONLY for Rugers, Contenders & North American guns.  Cor-Bon makes a 300 gr. hunting load that exceeds the power of a full bore 44 Magnum, but it is clearly marked on the ammo boxes.  (There are maybe some other rounds available - I'm not sure.)  Also, most ammo reloading books have a separate section showing load info for a number of calibers - 45 Colt especially, that is also clearly marked for use in the BIG guns, not the standard Colts or clones.  If you stay away from these, you'll be OK.

These guns are proofed before importation to be sold here using SAAMI-spec ammo, which is hotter than most factory Cowboy loads or probably ANY Black Powder ammo possible. Without marking the guns like the C&B guns, "Use Black Powder ONLY," they wouldn't be allowed on the market.  Several Cowboy ammo loading firms specifically rate their loads to BP pressures so they ARE less than SAAMI loadings.

The Italians make some decent guns that work pretty well.  Even 'tho the NEW Ruger Vaquero isn't as strong as the Old models, they are plenty stout, probably more so than the Italians - but they WON"T handle those Cor-Bon loads which are for the Super Blackhawks and such.

Keep your loads to the safe, published maximum - with either Black Powder or Smokey-less loads, and you TOO can proudly call yourself a "Warthog."  If you want. 

Keep yer powder dry!

Jeff - "Steel Horse Bailey"

Here's more info:  http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=10.0

[Pettifogger]

Doesn't really matter if the receiver on a Henry is steel or brass.  The limiting factor is the basic toggle link design.  You basically have a very weak action (more than adequate for anything from the BP era) that has six (three on each side) pinned joints.  The design works great with BP and modern factory standard loads.  Never use reloading data for the Ruger or T/C.  People have shot thousands upon thousands of rounds out of these guns without a hitch.  I saw some test reports a few years ago and they found the frames don't really stretch (obviously, if you load a round hot enough to destroy or severely damage the gun even a steel frame can stretch) with hot loads.  What happens is the pins bend and/or the metal around the joints compress a little.  Thus, the resulting excess headspace isn't caused by frame stretching, it's caused by tolerance stack up in the links.  Bottom line is if anyone wants to shoot hot loads none of the Winchester toggle links is the gun to buy.  Get a Marlin 94 or a Winchester 92 if you want to hot rod the loads.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Regarding brass, iron, and steel. The very first Henrys, made by the New Haven Arms Company in 1862 had iron frames. There were something less than 400 of them made. Various reasons are given for why they were made with iron frames, but the factory soon changed over to making 'brass' frames and all subsequent Henrys were made with 'brass' frames. Modern research shows that the frames of these guns were made from an alloy consisting of about 80% copper, 14.5% Tin, 2% Zinc, and .5% lead. This alloy was commonly known as 'gunmetal' in the 19th Century. Because of the much higher tin content than zinc, today it would be classified as a Bronze. However nothing is going to change 150 years of gunwriters talking about 'brass' framed rifles.

Modern Italian made Henrys come with either brass, or steel frames. The ones sold as 'iron framed' are really steel. None are made today with iron frames. I don't know the actual chemical content of the alloy used in modern brass framed Henrys, but I intend to find out. In one of his books, I believe Shooting Lever Guns of the Old West, Mike Venturino talks briefly about a modern brass framed Henry that was ruined by shooting too many heavy loads through it. Whether the frame stretched, or the mortices were battered, the head spacing was still ruined on the gun.

Folks keep bandying about that modern Cowboy ammo is loaded to Black Powder pressures. I do not believe this is true. While the velocity of Cowboy ammo may be reduced from standard SAAMI pressures, Smokeless powders generate a very different pressure curve than Black Powder does, and generally speaking even Smokeless Cowboy loads will generate more pressure than Black Powder loads will. However it is not the pressure per se that will damage a toggle link rifle like the Henry, it is the battering of recoil, as Pettifogger said. But modern Italian made toggle link guns, either brass or steel framed, are strong enough to put up with regular SAAMI spec ammo without damage. But don't go shooting the heavy stuff in one.

[Fox Creek Kid]

FWIW, many historians believe that the New Haven Arms. Co. did NOT make the iron frame Henry rifles, but rather the job was farmed out to Colt who made them. 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Fox Creek Kid

The way I have heard it, all the production equipment may not have been in place in the new factory in New Haven yet, so Winchester may have farmed out making the iron frames to Colt. I didn't hear that Colt assembled the entire rifles. But I suppose that makes just as much sense, afterall, Hartford is only about 40 miles up the river from New Haven.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Driftwood, much is not known, according to Herbert Houze, and is speculation and your theory makes as much sense to me.  If I remember correctly Houze postulated this because there is a big payment to Colt in the ledgers and I doubt it was for revolvers! 

[Mogorilla]

I have to say that 14.5% tin and 80% copper would be a tough-strong metal.   Bronze doesn't really get the props it deserves, There is many an historian how have hypothesized the Iron age would never have occured if Tin was a readily available as Iron ore.   Truly until modern steel production, an alloy in that would rank up there with ancient steel-iron.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I have to say that 14.5% tin and 80% copper would be a tough-strong metal.   Bronze doesn't really get the props it deserves, There is many an historian how have hypothesized the Iron age would never have occured if Tin was a readily available as Iron ore.   Truly until modern steel production, an alloy in that would rank up there with ancient steel-iron.

Yeppir!