50-95 loads

[eagles]

does anyone have any loading data for the 50-95 for the new uberti  76 ? I am looking for smoklles loads in the maximum range . I would think the 76 would be a much stronger action than the 73 based on the tests Winchester said they  did with the orriginal ? It would also seem the gun could be loaded to more than  the low end  black powder pressures ?

[Trailrider]

does anyone have any loading data for the 50-95 for the new uberti  76 ? I am looking for smoklles loads in the maximum range . I would think the 76 would be a much stronger action than the 73 based on the tests Winchester said they  did with the orriginal ? It would also seem the gun could be loaded to more than  the low end  black powder pressures ?

Howdy, Pard,

The plain facts are that the M1876 action is NOT SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than the '73.  It is enough stronger to handle the larger rifle cartridges for which it was built, using BLACK POWDER, but that's it!  Yes, Winchester did run proof tests on the '76 action that exceeded the normal loads, but that does NOT mean shooting overloads on a regular basis is a good idea!

Without going through a detailed structural analysis, the diameter of the .45-75 and .50-95 case heads increases the area over which the backthrust is transmitted to the bolt face/toggle link set.  The .50-95 WCF generates about 43% greater backthrust than the .44-40.  The'76 action is enough larger and stronger to handle that, but I would strongly advise AGAINST heating up loads more than generated by black powder! So far as smokeless loads are concerned, UNLESS YOU HAVE ACCESS TO AN OEHLER M43 Personal Ballistics Lab, and are willing to mess up the finish on the barrel over the chamber, where the strain gage must be glued, you have no way of tailoring the pressure-time curves to match those of BP.  If you must heat up loads past BP pressures in a lever action rifle, I suggest you get a MODERN M1886 or Marlin M1895.

[I can assume NO responsibility for the use of the above information by anyone...it is for general interest only!]

Ride careful, Pard!

[eagles]

Thanks . let me rephrase my question. What loads would might be  be the maximum that could be shot safely out of this gun with smokeless powder then ? Loads that would duplicate a maximum BP load, not a minumum one  ?  I think Ten X  has two laodings for this gun , one in BP and one in Smokeless and any idea of the ballsitics ? Anyone who reads that winchester test has to believe this is not the paper mache action some may think it is ., which it seems was Winchesters point when they made the test , to ofset those rumors .  I am not advocating hot smokeless loads but I believe , if tests are done a picture will arrise that shows a moderate strenght action capable of medium power loads . I agree for real hot work use a different gun , I have my two  71's  in 50-110 and 50 alaskan  for that  .

[Hobie]

You might read the topic on smokeless powders in the .45-75 in the forum AND look up Mike Venturino's data on the .50-95.

I would not want to exceed BP velocities with either AA5744 or IMR SR 4759.  If that is your goal, then a .50-110 1886 or modern .50 Alaskan conversion is the rifle you really want.   

[eagles]

Thanks Hobie. the old Winchester published velocity is good . I guese we will have to see as more of the 50-95's are sold what they are shooting . As I said I just want to hit the maximum blackpoweder velocity that WAS obtained,  with smokeless  powder , not exceed it . I just dont want a way underpowered dog load , even in the BP range , especialy if i hunt with the gun. It should perform as to what it was expected to do in the day . I am not sure the ten x loads do that as they may be way underpowered in case people shoot them in an old gun that is not so safe anymore , just like the 45 colt rounds are way underpowered , even in the BP errs they would not be considered at full power I dont believe .  Has anyone heard the MV for the ten X 50-95 ? Thanks

[Harve Curry]

Eagles,
Read this,  link to Smokless in 1876 clones : http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,17938.90.html
on page 10.
To add to what Trail Rider wrote,  there are other factors to consider affecting backthrust, among them:
Taper of the case vs straight wall cases.
Bullet diameter.
Rim diameter.
It is interesting to note that P.O. Ackley tested a Winchester '94 cal 30-30 improved. In his HANDBOOK FOR SHOOTERS AND RELOADERS, vol.1, Pressure on pages 137 through 149. This chapter directly deals with rearward thrust, case designs, action strength, head space, etc. By removing the Winchester 1894's breech locking lug and firing it with just the lever holding the mechanism shut, it did not open or blow back. Dry unoiled chambers are important, there will be some rearward thrust if any chamber is oiled. The article/chapter is to long to repeat here, it is complete with photographs. With your interests in reloading you should have the two volume set in your library.

[Hobie]

Thanks Hobie. the old Winchester published velocity is good . I guese we will have to see as more of the 50-95's are sold what they are shooting . As I said I just want to hit the maximum blackpoweder velocity that WAS obtained,  with smokeless  powder , not exceed it . I just dont want a way underpowered dog load , even in the BP range , especialy if i hunt with the gun. It should perform as to what it was expected to do in the day . I am not sure the ten x loads do that as they may be way underpowered in case people shoot them in an old gun that is not so safe anymore , just like the 45 colt rounds are way underpowered , even in the BP errs they would not be considered at full power I dont believe .  Has anyone heard the MV for the ten X 50-95 ? Thanks

OK, I understand what you want to do.  That's what many .45-75 shooters would also like to do.  The .50-95 just has a better bore expansion ratio with the same weight bullets (350 gr.) so you should be able to start there and work up to the correct velocity.  FWIW, I think TenX's .45-75 ammo is very close to BP velocities.  It appears that they are using IMR SR4759.  I would expect the same of their .50-95 ammo. In as much as, IIRC, .50-95 smokeless loads were produced by Winchester, it should be a simple matter to read John Kort's er, .44WCF's, post on the subject for guidance as to the powder used.

[eagles]

Thanks everyone , does ten x print velocities and pressures for their rounds ? Still curious about what they are saying their two 50-95 rounds put out .

[Hobie]

Thanks everyone , does ten x print velocities and pressures for their rounds ? Still curious about what they are saying their two 50-95 rounds put out .

I think you need to contact TenX.  I found that the best way to see what a company's product does in my gun is to shoot it in my gun.  Yeah, it will cost you $80...  The other is to do as the .45-75 shooters have been doing and conducting their own research.  Shortcuts are few and far between here.   

[Grizzly Adams]

I would just recommend  working up your loads using a chronograph.  Not only will this keep you within the envelope of 1500 fps but will allow you to adjust your loads for maximum efficiency for the given powder, so you can monitor your progress.

The bottom  line is that we are all on a major learning curve when it comes to the use of smokeless powder in the new replicas.  Start low work up using the powders that have shown promise at this point.  The new replicas are certainly made of better materials than where available in 1876, but the design is still a BP design,  like the Trapdoor Springfield.  Lots of knowledgeable folks read this board, and it never hurts to run thing past them.   Also, post your results - preferably with chrono data - so we can add to the knowledge base.

Welcome!

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Howdy
I talked to Richard at Ten X today , he said he would have the brass to load 50-95 in about 2 weeks if not sooner .