Web Cartridge Belts?

[J.R. Logan]

Howdy all, I was looking for a Web combo-cartridge belt with shotgun and pistol loops.  What I would like to know is did a belt like this exist in the old west and if so how common would it have been.  I have also heard this type of belt referred to as a Ranger belt but have not found any info that supports any Ranger force using a combo web cartridge belt.

Any help and info would be great.  Thanks for all your help.


J. R. Logan  SASS life, NCOWS 2919.

[St. George]

The web belts were called 'Fair Weather Christian' belts, 'Prairie Belts' and later - simply 'Mills Belts'.

They were developed by the Army for the climate and worked well because the web helped to keep the copper cases from corroding and forming a coating of verdigris as they did when they'd react to leather.

Later use of brass helped this problem, but by that time, the Mills Belt was in general issue.

They were not developed for shotgun shell use by the Army - but were developed for hunters very late in the era and featured only shotgun shell loops.

Scouts Out!

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

In PACKING IRON ranger belts are shown at page 174.  There is a very good photo of Arizona Rangers wearing very wide leather belts with loops for both pistol cartridges and for bottlenecked ammo for an 1895 Winchester.  There are several other combination belt, and shotgun only Mills pattern belts, but I havn't noticed any combo belts for pistol & shotgun.

Perhaps just such a belt can be found somewhere?  Anything deemed convenient could have been made.  Most "cowboys" would have carried a single revolver, and a saddle rifle when in need, but carrying two long guns doesn't seem practical.  Shotguns were likely only carried when looking for trouble, or game.

[Boot]

"Fair weather Christian belts" were not an oficial military issue, but were a field modification of the excisting belt, they were constructed on a leather belt and either leather or canvas was used for the loops. These were used in the years between the civil war and the first issue cartridge belt in 1876.

The 1876 pattern belt was built from canvas, but it was constructed in the same way as a leather belt, by sewing loops to the body.

Circa 1880 Anson Mills designed a machine that wove a belt with loops.
Variations of this belt were in use for many years, but as far as I'm aware none were made in a combination of calibers.

Combination cartridge belts appear to be a late Frontier item, they usually have a single row of rifle amunition and two rows of pistol, I've not seen any for shotgun rounds.
I too have heard the term "Ranger belt", I think this may be for there use with the Arizona Rangers in the early 1900s.

Boot.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

On a recent review of PACKING IRON, I have the impression that "thimble belt" and "fair weather Christian belt" are interchangeable terms for the early local field expedient looped cartridge belts used by the military.  I'm not sure of the appropriate term for civilian cartridge belts in the early days.

[Boot]

I think you're right, also "Prairie belt" and "Scouting belt" seem interchangable too.

The terms "Thimble belt" "Scouting belt"and "Prairie belt" are self explanatory and these terms may well have also been used for early civilian belts.

I'm not entirely sure of the origins of the the term "Fair weather Christian" presumably it has something to do with the cartridges being exposed to the elements as apposed to a box.

Boot.

[ColonelFlashman]

I think you're right, also "Prairie belt" and "Scouting belt" seem interchangable too.

The terms "Thimble belt" "Scouting belt"and "Prairie belt" are self explanatory and these terms may well have also been used for early civilian belts.

I'm not entirely sure of the origins of the the term "Fair weather Christian" presumably it has something to do with the cartridges being exposed to the elements as apposed to a box.

Boot.

The "Thimble Belt' has Spring Steele clips revited to the belt into which the cartidges were snapped into place & then be snapped straight out, instead of having to Drawn up & out as w/ a normal "Looped" cartridge belt.
It's "Fairweather-Christian", as in the name of two field officers from the early 1870's who were known to wear them after having post Saddlers make one for them to replace the cartridge boxs for use in the field.

[Boot]

Early cartridge loops were also known as "Thimbles" hence the term "Thimble belt".

Very interesting about the officers names, I always wondered where it came from.

Packin' Iron and American military belts by Stephen Dorsey both refer to them as ""Fair Weather Christian"
U.S. Army in the West by Doug McCristian refers to them as "Thimble" or "Prairie"
Arming and equiping the U.S. cav' etc. by Dusan Farrington refers to them as "Scouting belts"

None of the afore mentioned books make any reference to officers Fairweather or Christian.
I'm not doubting your claim, but I would be very interested to see a reference as it's something I've always wondered about.

Boot.

[Boot]

Here's a link I discovered whilst doing a Google search;
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=8518.0;wap2

I'm inclined to agree with U.S. Scout untill further evidence comes forward.

Boot.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I just read the link that Boots sent;  I was going to observe that a Christian puts his trust in the Lord.  A "fair weather" Christian would put his trust in the Lord;

..until the going got tough! 

THEN he would need plenty of ammo!

[Boot]

Cor Blimey, there aint half a lot of Englishmen on 'ere !

That sounds the most feasable so far, unless Colonel Flashman can come up with some evidence to back up his officers theory.

Boot.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy, JR!

Long time, no see.

I have one of the belts you're referring to.  I'd offer it to you to try, but you'd probably have to loop it around you twice to get it to fit!

Mine has 6 or 8, 12 ga. loops and 30+, 45 cal. loops.  It works best with 45-70 (or similar) rifle rounds, but works well enough with my 45 Colt rounds, too.  (I often have all 3 calibers in the 2 sized loops.)  It is a web belt with leather ends - "billets" I think is the term.  It is very similar to some I've seen pictured as "saddler made" items.  Don't take this as Gospel, but I THINK that the ones that were either issued or saddler-made (the leather FWC type  belt or the web type like mine) were made with 20 ga. loops and used where the units employed the special modified 1873 Trapdoor 20 ga shotgun.  If I remember correctly, these T'doors were made by boring out the shot-out barrels (boring out what little rifling was left) or perhaps incorrectly sized factory barrels.  These rifles/shotguns were issued as hunting arms for troops "in the field."

Next time we're at a shoot you can see it (if still interested) if I'm "in uniform" since this is my main Military style outfit belt.

Give me a call sometime!  Or IM me and tell me when's the best time to call - I don't want to disturb the triplets! 

Jeff

[ColonelFlashman]

Cor Blimey, there aint half a lot of Englishmen on 'ere !

That sounds the most feasable so far, unless Colonel Flashman can come up with some evidence to back up his officers theory.

Boot.

You know, I could really care less what You believe or dis-believe, especially w/ your Snotty 'tude.
@ present I'm unable to get to my reference books because they are still packed away from the move into our new home.
But, one of my sources is writer/editor Phil S. from "Guns & Ammo" magazine, who's references collection vastly exceeds mine, the other that I can lay hands on is my copy of Dorsey's book on "American Military Belts & Related Equipments" where Fairweather-Christain" is one word, just as I wrote it. 
The Officer references came from other published sources from 1st hand accounts that were published prior to & @ the turn of the 20th C. & well into the 1980's, as well as the hundreds of Reference Library's & Museum's I had to don little white cotton gloves in order to even handle the original source material & yes, my notes are w/ my reference books.
You might wish to do some of Your Own hands-On research instead of coming here & aksing questions of those here that have & than coping a Snotty 'Tude when You get answers you don't like or agree w/.

[Boot]

I'm sorry you've taken it that way, there was no offense intended.

You made a statement claiming that both Fairweather and Christian were army officers as I'd not heard of either of these gentlemen or this theory I asked for some evidence to support it.

When you do regain your information, I'd be interested to see any relevant refrences.

In American military belts and related equipments by Dorsey it's actually spelt with three words.

"Fair Weather Christian Belt"

Other than in the title he makes no other reference to the name.

Boot.

[ColonelFlashman]

I'm sorry you've taken it that way, there was no offense intended.
You made a statement claiming that both Fairweather and Christian were army officers as I'd not heard of either of these gentlemen or this theory I asked for some evidence to support it.
When you do regain your information, I'd be interested to see any relevant refrences.
In American military belts and related equipments by Dorsey it's actually spelt with three words.
"Fair Weather Christian Belt"
Other than in the title he makes no other reference to the name.
Boot.

Excuse me if I'm somewhat skeptical of the seperate aspects your response, so I'll enumerate them.

You asked a question & the Majority of the responses were Best Guesses & you had no problem accepting them, Hmmmmmmm, funny that.
Yet when I give my response Based on 30+ years of hard won research w/ a lot of it in Research Library's & Museums reading Original 1st Hand Source Material, wearing White Cotton Gloves, your reponse to me comes across to me as if I've just pulled my statement out of my arse.

I recall coming across more than one source that made statements to the effect that two different Field Grade Army Officers by the names Fairweather & Christian had the Post Saddlers make the 1st of this type of belt, were given credit for the belt.
You basically call me a Liar & I'm to Prove it.
So based on your afore mentioned intial response, you'd just call me Liar once again no matter what research I presented to you, so No Joy, boy-o. Go make your own Appointments in some Research Library's & Museums that will let you, bury yourself in some 1st Hand Source Material & actually get your hands dirty, so to speak looking it up (white cotton gloves, remember).

Go back & re-read my statement, as I stated previously, MY COPY has it Spelled out as "Fairweather-Christian" & the other Copies I've seen of the Dorsey book has it spelled the same way. So untill I see it in Spelled your way in several other copies of the Dorsey book, I'll just stick w/ mine & the others that were on the shelf when & where I purchased mine back when it was 1st published.

Where did I state that Dorsey made any other statement other then that My Copy of Dorsey's book supports my statement about the spelling of "Fairweather-Christian". I didn't now did I, so don't go putting words into my mouth.

Colonel Flashman

[Fox Creek Kid]

I have read where an officer under Anson Mills was the one who actually filed the patent for the Mills belt as Mills himself was not interested. Interestingly it made him (Mills) a very wealthy man. Mills conjured up the idea after noticing the loud clanging loise made by metallic cartridges rolling around in metal lined Civil War pouches after the war. I am sure that soldiers out West improvised (as they always do) to make some some sort of cartridge holders. As a side note, the vast majority of belts I've seen in person & in books/museums for large Sharps style cartridges were totally leather. One would think that verdigris would have been quite common. 

[Delmonico]

If the belts were of good oil tanned instead of one of the acid tanned types of leather, the verdigris would have not been much of a problem if at all.  The most common oil tan of the period being brain tanning,

Of course a good buffalo hunter with any luck would not carry the rounds around in the belt long enough to cause problems.

[ColonelFlashman]

The "Fairweather-Christian" belt was a Leather belt w/ Canvas Loops stitched to it that was unofficially adopted by the Army to replace Cartridge Boxes & as "D" states Acid Tanning is the process is the cause of verdigris on the cartridge cases stored on leather belts.

I seem to recall something along those lines FCK, I've the Mills Belt Bio somewhere,  it's well worth the read & has lots of great Pix.

And one of those sources for the "Fairweather-Christian" name, was an Auto-Biography by a Saddler Sgt. from the era. I just am unable to recall his name or the name of the book @ present & I'm really ticked off @ myself off that I can't.

[Boot]

Of all the "Fair Weather Christian belts" I've seen none have canvas loops, certainly the one in Dorseys book doesn't as I've seen it in Tucson.

I've not called anyone a liar, but I do question posts where no source is given.
I've not ruled out your theory, but this is the first time I've heard it, so at the very least I'm sceptical.

Boot.

[Boot]

I've spoken with R.Stephen Dorsey who is a well known author of U.S. Military belts and Equipments and whom I do regard as an authority on the subject.

Mr Dorsey stated that the term "Fair Weather Christian belt" was in use with civilians before the Military, but did not know how it derived.

Also that the theory of it being named after two Army officers is not correct.



Boot.