Ammo Loads

Started by Dead Eye Dave, January 06, 2008, 07:27:15 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Dead Eye Dave

Whats the strongest load you can use in most Colt clones?  I have shot up to 270 grains but I am just wondering what the experts out there know. 

Thanks in Advance

DB

Steel Horse Bailey

I aint an expert, nor do I portray one on TV.

Generally, the accepted wisdom is keep it to SAAMI specs.  That's USUALLY done with a 250-255 gr. bullet, but about ANY weight bullet can be loaded to spec.  The problem is, the only factory loads I've heard of that use a bullet bigger than 250 grs. are the ones made by Cor Bon and they specifically say NOT to use them in Colts and the clones.

Call Hodgdon's tech line (or any of the other powder manufacturers) and ask if they have load data for the heavier bullets available.  You could load them up and still be within specs that would suit most clones - at least if you don't use that heavy loading ALL THE TIME.  I doubt that the clones could handle a steady diet of top-power loads without some eventual problems.

A good friend loads typical full power loads to shoot in his Colt. (3rd Gen.)  He has ZERO problems.  Then, during hunting season, he uses a good quality JSP or JHP factory load from Winchester or Remington.  (I know one year he used Winchester-Western Silvertips.)  I've tasted the fruit of his labor.  Since the WW & Rem loads are simply full-power spec loads, it isn't a problem.  It hasn't affected my AWA either.  Just stay away from those Cor Bons (which are GREAT in Rugers, Contenders and North American Arms) and stay with standard loadings.

By the way, Elmer Keith used 44 cal. SAA Colts when he developed the loads that we now know as 44 Magnums.  I believe he used bullets up to 300 grains.  And Elmer also blew up 4 or 5 Colts during that testing, too!  ;)
"May Your Powder always be Dry and Black; Your Smoke always White; and Your Flames Always Light the Way to Eternal Shooting Fulfillment !"

Virginia Gentleman

The Colt, USFAs and Italian clones can handle the SAAMI spec (non Cowboy squib) loads with no problem, but NOT any of the overpressure loads made for ROOGERS or Freedom Arms etc.

Dead Eye Dave

Thanks for the responses.  What are the SAAMI specs? 

Thanks

DB

Steel Horse Bailey

"May Your Powder always be Dry and Black; Your Smoke always White; and Your Flames Always Light the Way to Eternal Shooting Fulfillment !"

Dead Eye Dave


Driftwood Johnson

Howdy

Ya know, I've been all over that SAAMI site for years, and I don't find any specs listed anywhere. The Speer manual is pretty good, it lists SAAMI max pressure specs for all the cartridges in it. SAAMI Max pressure for 45 Colt is either 13,500 psi or 14,000 psi, I don't quite remember exactly. Just for reference, SAMMI Max pressure spec for 357 Magnum and 44 Magnum is more than twice what the max is for 45 Colt.
That's bad business! How long do you think I'd stay in operation if it cost me money every time I pulled a job? If he'd pay me that much to stop robbing him, I'd stop robbing him.

Ya probably inherited every penny ya got!

Steel Horse Bailey

Don't many of the ammo loading books list the max pressure for each round?  Or do they simply list the pressure reading THEY worked to?
"May Your Powder always be Dry and Black; Your Smoke always White; and Your Flames Always Light the Way to Eternal Shooting Fulfillment !"

Driftwood Johnson

Howdy Again

Of the three books that I use most often, The Lyman Pistol and Revolver Handbook, Lee, and Speer, Speer is the only one that lists the SAAMI max pressures. The other two only list the pressures of the particular loads, and sometimes the pressure data is missing. They do not list the SAMMI max pressures. Speer lists the SAAMI max pressure for every cartridge. When referring to all three, I often have to go back to Speer to see where the pressures listed in the other two are in relationship to the SAAMI max. I have Speer open in front of me right now. SAAMI max pressure for 45 Colt is 14,000 psi.
That's bad business! How long do you think I'd stay in operation if it cost me money every time I pulled a job? If he'd pay me that much to stop robbing him, I'd stop robbing him.

Ya probably inherited every penny ya got!

Dead Eye Dave

Wow, thanks for all the info.  Is there something that correlates the psi with the load thats listed on a box of ammo, such as 200 grains equals this much psi etc?

Thanks

DB

Steel Horse Bailey


Dead Eye, Howdy!

Quote from: Dead Eye Dave on January 12, 2008, 04:05:01 AM
Wow, thanks for all the info.  Is there something that correlates the psi with the load thats listed on a box of ammo, such as 200 grains equals this much psi etc?

Thanks

DB


In a word, no.

Also, the figures themselves can be VERY confusing because there are several ways of measuring.  The older way is expressed as ____ CUP, or Copper Units of Pressure.  Basically, they had a special fixture and fired a round which caused a small piece/sphere/bar/? of copper to deform.  They would measure how much it was crushed and figured the pressure from there.  Now, many manufacturers express the figures as PSI.  I don't think there is a common way to correlate the two, let alone replicate it in the home!  So, when someone says "keep it to SAAMI specs" - like I did - it means to use the published, safe loads as printed by the various powder manufacturers in their books, or from their websites.  To MOST of us, SAAMI specs are basically useless! - EXCEPT maybe for comparison's sake.  But the industry knows how to use them and I (and others) know how use the information that they publish, so safe rounds can be made.

Having various load books and printing info from the powder mafgr's websites can be VERY handy and is highly advised.

By the way, MOST ammo manufacturers won't tell you their exact powder used or the amounts.  They have the capability to blend various powders to get the exact results they want - and blending powders is NOT recommended for the handloader!  They might print the PSI figures or the velocity, but not the exact "recipe."



"May Your Powder always be Dry and Black; Your Smoke always White; and Your Flames Always Light the Way to Eternal Shooting Fulfillment !"

St. George

Sounds like you're looking to shoot as powerful a load as you possibly can.

If so - buy a Ruger and load accordingly, as the clones aren't built as robustly as those tanks are.

Eventually, though - you'll find that a loud noise doesn't always mean that the target falls, and you'll be looking for something both powerful as well as controllable.

'SAMMI Specs' are what the manufacturer recommends - and with good reason, , since exceeding those specs can essentially erase the Warranty of your firearm and the manufacturers even state that handloads will do just that.

That's why most handloaders approach reloading armed with a lot of research before they start measuring - and why reloading's 'exactness' is so appealing.

The books cited by Driftwood Johnson are readily available - both in the better-stocked gun shops and even in used book stores.

Buy them and read - you'll find them interesting - as is a book by Elmer Keith titled 'Sixguns'.

Keith modified and  blew up a helluva lot of good Colts as he navigated his way to creating the .44 Magnum.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

"It Wasn't Cowboys and Ponies - It Was Horses and Men.
It Wasn't Schoolboys and Ladies - It Was Cowtowns and Sin..."

Driftwood Johnson

QuoteWow, thanks for all the info.  Is there something that correlates the psi with the load thats listed on a box of ammo, such as 200 grains equals this much psi etc?

No.

Pressure is influenced by more than just bullet weight and velocity. One of the most important factors is the burning rate of the powder being used. Modern Smokeless powders do not explode, they burn at a controlled rate. As they burn, they give off exhaust gasses at high pressure, just like the gasoline burning in the cylinders of your car. But the difference is that when gunpowder burns, if the exhaust gasses are confined, as inside a cartridge case, or in the bore of a gun, they generate higher pressure as the powder burns. With modern gunpowder, the more pressure there is, the faster the powder burns. Which generates more pressure. Which makes the powder burn faster. On and on until either the powder is totally consumed, or the bullet leaves the barrel, or in the worst case, until the gun explodes. This property of modern powders generating more pressure and burning faster is called Progressive burning. It is the key to all modern reloading. Keeping the burn going long enough to completely harness the gas pressure being generated, without either running out of powder, or blowing up the gun.

The powder manufacturers formulate their powders very specifically to burn at a specific rate, relative to the burn rates of other powders. Different powders with different burn rates have different applications. A fast burning powder is usually needed for pistol ammo because the powder needs to be totally consumed by the time the bullet leaves the short barrel. Rifle powders usually burn slower, because the barrel is longer and there is more time before the bullet leaves the barrel. It gets much more complicated than that, but that is a start.

Different powders with different burn rates will generate different amounts of pressure under the same conditions. In other words, one cartridge loaded with 'X' amount of powder 'A' may push a bullet of a certain weight to say, 800 feet per second, generating 10,000 PSI. Powder 'B' may push the exact same bullet to the exact same velocity, but may generate 12,000 PSI in doing so. That is why there is no correlation between velocity and bullet weight and pressure, unless you know exactly what powder was used, and how much of it. And no ammo maker will tell you that, for liability reasons. You simply have to trust that the ammo manufacturer has tested his ammo, and is keeping the pressure to Industry accepatable levels. Same with loading data in a manual. Your manual may tell you how much pressure is being generated with a specific load, it may not. You have to trust the authors that they did their homework, and used accurate testing equipment to determine how much pressure was being generated by their different recipes, and they kept the pressure to industry standard levels. It is possible to inspect fired cases for certain signs of over pressure, but without proper instrumentation, one cannot really know how much pressure was developed.
That's bad business! How long do you think I'd stay in operation if it cost me money every time I pulled a job? If he'd pay me that much to stop robbing him, I'd stop robbing him.

Ya probably inherited every penny ya got!

Delmonico

Bore size in relation to the volume of the case also has a lot to do with how fast or slow burning of a powder you use.  The larger the volume in relation to the bore size, the slower burning the powders need to be. 

But it is easy really, just used data developed by the powder makers and the bullet makers, they know and have proper test equipment.  For example if the load data for 45 Colt says for Rugers only, don't use it in a Colt SAA Army or clone.  They spend much money and time developing safe loads, just use they're information and you'll be safe, when in doubt they all have 800 numbers.
Mongrel Historian


Always get the water for the coffee upstream from the herd.

Ab Ovo Usque ad Mala

The time has passed so quick, the years all run together now.

Dead Eye Dave

Thanks again for the responses.  I am trying not to have a gun blow up on me again.  Not really blow up exactly but the barrel got blown out but now it seems the there may have been a squib in the barrel and it went kablooie.  (technical term there LOL) And i am trying to learn as much as I can about these pistols.  Theres so much to learn.  And a lot of good folks here with a lot of info.

Thanks again

DB

© 1995 - 2024 CAScity.com