44 conversion calibers

Hoof Hearted · January 02, 2008, 09:08:17 PM

First the disclaimer:
Bull Schmitt and I discussed this at length via email and he agreed that it would be a good idea to "clear this up" so to speak, Obviously there are differing opinions out there and the R. Phillips book, Remington Large Bore Conversion Revolvers is a credible source for information regarding chamberings for 44 caliber Remington conversions.

According to Phillips, First model conversions were made in .46 rimfire and some were made in .44 rimfire. Second, third and fourth models were also chambered in .46 rimfire. Also many Remington conversions were Armory produced for the .44 Colt cartridge after the Martin cartridge proved to "troublesome". Many of these would also chamber .44 S&W Russian as well as S&W American and .44 Remington cartridges for the 1875.

Oldelm was instumental in forwarding the pages referring to this to me and I would be happy to send them along via email to any of our readers out there that would like to form their own opinion regarding this subject.

My opinion is that the statement, "To bad the Cartridge Coverted Remington's didn't chamber the .44 Colt's cartridge, as they were chambered for the .44 Remington. If one attempted to place a .44 Colt's cartridge into a converted Remington, the round Only goes 3/4's of the way into the Remington chamber then stops & goes no further.", is not entirely true and it gives a "false perspective" to the history of Remington large caliber conversion. But if you are interested I urge you to read the afore mentioned pages and form your own opinion.

This is a GREAT forum and I hope you all find enjoyment in the history and comraderie of Remington Revolvers!
Regards
Hoof Hearted

Oldelm · January 02, 2008, 10:23:06 PM

Yes indeed .....

Mighty stiff price, too.....

Deadeye Don · January 03, 2008, 06:44:41 AM

HH, Thanks for posting this. I have been looking for a 44 colt label for quite some time now. Regards. Deadeye.

Deadeye Don · January 03, 2008, 09:27:23 AM

HH, Very impressive collection there. I downloaded several labels. Thank you for being so kind as to give us access to your collection.

ColonelFlashman · January 07, 2008, 11:56:15 PM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on January 02, 2008, 09:08:17 PM
Right here on GunBroker:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=88914162

Mighty nice label....................

Great item, way over priced.
To bad the Cartridge Coverted Remington's didn't chamber the .44 Colt's cartridge, as they were chambered for the .44 Remington.
If one attempted to place a .44 Colt's cartridge into a converted Remington, the round Only goes 3/4's of the way into the Remington chamber then stops & goes no further.

ColonelFlashman · January 08, 2008, 03:45:21 PM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on January 08, 2008, 08:44:16 AM
Mine do;D

Since the "original" Remington Army conversions and ammunition were designed around a heel base bullet design it would be hard for you to own one that had chamber throats that were tighter than the outside dimensions of the cartridge case. The reality is that they are bored straight through.

If you have one that is different than the ones I own, I'd like to hear more!

The .44 Remington was also used in the 1st Production series '75 N.M.A. as well & yes it used a Heeled bullet, but it was slightly shorter & had a Tapered Case. Hense, a .44 Colt's should Not chamber in either the Coverted '63 or a '75 Remington chambered for .44 Remington, that is if someones pistole has not been altered by a Previous Owner to actually now chamber the .44 Colt's. Which is more than likely the case, seen as how in the 1900's the .44 Colt's was readily available & the .44 Remington was O.O.P.

ColonelFlashman · January 08, 2008, 04:11:48 PM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on January 08, 2008, 04:02:31 PM
No disputing 1875 Remington facts here
But you originally stated, "the Cartridge Coverted Remington's didn't chamber the .44 Colt's cartridge". All 1875's were built as cartridge pistols.
And that statement simply is erroneous

How is it errorneous? Unless the chamber on the '63 or the '75 have been altered, they will Not chamber the .44 Colt's.
Both the '63 & the '75 were Chambered to Fire the Same Prepriatory Remington Cartridge, The .44 Remington!
I've 30 years of research, owning of Remington Manufactured Firearms & I own or have owned most all of what Remington made in the 1800's. So that means I've 1st hand knowledge of what I'm stating here, as I've had to hand Load All of my Pistole Cartridges in order to be able to fire my Original Remington Revolvers & None of mine chambered for anything but the prepriatory .44 Remington cartridge ever chambered the .44Colt's.

Black River Smith · January 08, 2008, 05:19:48 PM

ColonelFlashman,

""as I've had to hand Load All of my Pistole Cartridges in order to be able to fire my Original Remington Revolvers & None of mine chambered for the prepriatory .44 Reminton cartridge""

I do know what you are saying. I would be interesting in knowing how you created the Remington 44 Casing?? I have looked at this casing for years and without having special-custom dies/sizers made how did you load for it?

Thanks for any information.

ColonelFlashman · January 08, 2008, 06:28:44 PM

I Have In No Way Done Any Back Peddling Of Any Sort!

And As I Already Stated, the Only Way A .44 Colt's Cartridge Will Fit Into A '63 Cartridge Coverted to Prepriatory .44 Remington Or A '75 N.M.A. Chambered For the Prepriatory .44 Remignton Cartridge, Is If The P.O. Had It Rechambered For To Fire Another .44 Calibre Cartridge.

And I Do Not Care If Yours Will Chamber The .44 Colt's NOW, As Unaltered Originals Will Not Chamber Anything But The Prepriatory .44 Remington Catridge! Which Means Yours Has Been Altered By a Previous Owner To Chamber the .44 Colt's!

My Sources Are the Remington Arms Factory Historian, The Remington Arms Collectors Association, Hundreds of Remington Collectors Of Unaltered Revolvers That I've Spoken W/ & Examend Their Remington's & Such Authors Such As Hatch, Karr, Wilson, Etc., As Well As Original Sales Catalogs That Lists The Cartridge That Is Chambered In Both The Cartridge Coverted '63 & the '75 N.M.A. As The Remington .44/100, As Well As Several Handloading Books Published In The Late 1890's & Early 1900's That Lists Them AS TWO Seperate Cartridges W/ TWO Different Case & Loaded Measurements.

It's Your Ilk Is The Reason I Spend Rather Little Time Posting Here & Just Lurking. I Was One Of The First To Join This Illutrious Membership. You Believe That No One Else's Years Of Reasearch, 1st Hand Experience In Handling & Actually Shooting Thousands Of Original Remington Revolvers Means Nothing to You! Only Your Own Rather Limited Experience & Collection Is Acceptable.

Good Day to You.

ColonelFlashman · January 08, 2008, 06:31:14 PM

Quote from: Black River Smith on January 08, 2008, 05:19:48 PM
ColonelFlashman,

""as I've had to hand Load All of my Pistole Cartridges in order to be able to fire my Original Remington Revolvers & None of mine chambered for the prepriatory .44 Reminton cartridge""

I do know what you are saying. I would be interesting in knowing how you created the Remington 44 Casing?? I have looked at this casing for years and without having special-custom dies/sizers made how did you load for it?

Thanks for any information.

I took an Original .44 Remington cartridge & sent it to a Custom Die maker & had him make a set of .44 Remington dies for me.

Fox Creek Kid · January 08, 2008, 07:25:34 PM

Co. Flashman, everybody knows you're the "go to" man hereabouts for Remmy questions.

Everything I've ever read coincides with what you have posted.

FWIW, just yesterday I TRIED, repeat TRIED to load a .44 Colt loaded with a heel based bullet that was 0.440 at the ogive into an ORIGINAL 1875 Remington chambered in .44 Rem. and it would not go. The chamber mouths were approx. 0.446. A .44 Colt case fully resized would chamber with difficulty, i.e., extremely tight. The .44 Colt loaded by UMC, Colt, & Frankford Arsenal had heel based bullets that were approx. 0.451 at the ogive. Col. Flashman is absolutely & unequivocally correct about the tapered chambers of the .44 Rem proprietary round. I've read every post the esteemed Col. has posted on SCORRS in the past & he most certainly knows what in the Sam Hill he is talking about.

Black River Smith · January 08, 2008, 10:39:09 PM

Col,

Thank you for the info., that is what I thought was necessary.

Cal Fornia · January 08, 2008, 10:50:13 PM

Hi...

Though I got here too late to read the OP's intro post, or any of his other comments (which seem to have been deleted?... if I'm not totally daft), this whole forty-four this and forty-four that would make things a bit confusing, as BRS mentioned, given the wide difference in bullet type and actual caliber between some of these rounds. Guess this is what makes the hobby interesting, and all those years of experience and research hard-earned. But I got's ta thinkin'...

If somebody's got a .44 Remington that can also chamber the Colt round, and somebody's got one that hasn't been "messed with", it would be interesting to do a comparative, microscopic examination of each cylinder's chambers, to see if remachining of the one cylinder's chambers has left any evidence of "tampering". On what do I base my thoughts? Well, if the Colt round partially chambers, and a remachining/rebore only opens up the taper, there should be a point at which the old reamer marks and the new reamer marks visibly meet. At least, that's what I would think, though it may depend on who did the work, and if the chambers were polished afterwards, to the point where the traces may have been lost. Of course, I may just be blowing a smelly wind here, being no expert myself. However, the thought did enter my head, and I didn't think it would hurt to share.

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Bull Schmitt · January 09, 2008, 05:20:57 PM

Although much valuable information has been provided in the thread, there has been some friction generated between some of the participants.

The problem has been addressed by me and no further comment or action by anyone else is necessary.

Let's return to a civil discussion of Remington revolvers and the shooting thereof.

Bull Schmitt
SCORRS Moderator

Wolfgang · January 09, 2008, 07:46:39 PM

Intersting information regarding .44 conversions ( in spite of some disagreements on some points ) . . . . . . thank you all for posting.

Lefty County · January 11, 2008, 08:14:25 PM

There is some really good information here. Just got the new edition of Flayderman's, and this information helps to put the caliber offerings in perspective

Thanks
County

Hoof Hearted · January 24, 2008, 10:26:16 AM

By the way if any of you are interested, I'll email you the pic of the 44 Colt label that started us down this path!

Bryan Austin · January 16, 2009, 05:17:14 PM

After a while I decided to re-read this topic. At first it made my brain hurt but discovered that some postings may have been removed. Anyway, it makes sense to me now and ansers some questions I have had. Now, can someone list all the .44 centerfire cartridges?

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on January 24, 2008, 10:26:16 AM
By the way if any of you are interested, I'll email you the pic of the 44 Colt label that started us down this path!

Yes please

curtisshawk@windstream.net

ColonelFlashman · January 16, 2009, 06:08:27 PM

Quote from: Savvy Jack on January 16, 2009, 05:17:14 PM
After a while I decided to re-read this topic. At first it made my brain hurt but discovered that some postings may have been removed. Anyway, it makes sense to me now and ansers some questions I have had. Now, can someone list all the .44 centerfire cartridges?

Yes please

curtisshawk@windstream.net

.44 Bull Dog

.44 Webley

.44 Henry Center Fire

.44 Government Center Fire

.44 Colt

.44 Remington

.44 Remington Mag.

.44 Evans Short

.440 Revolver

.440 Long Revolver

.440 Nagant (Argentine model)

.442 Revolver

.442 Long Revolver

.44 Merwin Hulbert Long

.44 Merwin Hulbert Short

.44 Smith & Wesson American

.44 Smith & Wesson Russian

10.5 Reich Revolver Cartridge

.44 Smith & Wesson Special

.44 Winchester Center Fire

.44 Marble Game Getter

This is what I can remember, as soon as I'm able to find my book that lists Every Obsolete & Current cartridge ever made I'll post the rest.

Bryan Austin · January 16, 2009, 06:41:05 PM

I did say "all" didn't I?

What was used in the 1858 Remington Conversions I guess is what I shoulda asked. However, thanks for the list.

I only have one or two books and these forums. Thanks to those that share their info.

In the book Metallic Cartridge Conversions on page 56 there is a pic of a Remington 1858 with six cartridges. It does not say what the cartridges are but they look to be centerfire.

Does anyone have a comparison pic of the 44 Colt and 44 Remington?