Fact or Fiction?

[Fox Creek Kid]

The following website states that Old West holsters had round toe plugs & not tear dropped. Is this true?

http://www.waltontaylor.com/gunleather/gunleather.html

[Wild Ben Raymond]

I didn't see anything about plugs but what got my attention was this paragraph;
All the great frontier pistoleros started out with Colt percussion arms and some of them never made the switch to the Peacemaker. Hickok had just made the switch to Navy conversions in .38 rimfire before he went to Deadwood in 1876, and when Hardin was captured by the Rangers in 1877 he was carrying a .44 Colt 1860 Army. It was 1879, the twilight of the West, before Colt could really begin to meet civilian demand for the 1873.
I've heard arguements about wheather or not Hickok had Navy conversions and most of what I've read say nay, that he went to his maker with 51' Navy's C&B pistola's. What's the correct answer? WBR

[Irish Dave]

Some of my readings/research indicate Hickock was carrying only a S&W .32 (tip up) at the time of his murder.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

The following website states that Old West holsters had round tie plugs & not tear dropped. Is this true?

No, this is not true. Some had round ones while others had tear dropped ones.

Here's a picture from Packing Iron for you. This is the toe of a holster made circa 1883-1888.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Here's another one that appears to have a tear drop toe plug. This one is on a holster made 1850-1855 for a Colt 1851 Navy.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Thanks, M.W. 

[ChuckBurrows]

NUG (normally, usually, generally) the earlier holsters for C & B's are the ones that will have the round or near round toe plugs, while the later holsters for cartridge guns almost always have the tear drop or rounded tear drop plug, but there are always exceptions.

FWIW - that's based on studying the books available along with examining a couple thousand old time (mostly pre-1900) western holsters.

Don't never intend to bad mouth anyone, but I sure wish folks would cross reference their research before writing such articles.....The note about most civilian holsters in PI being of 1900's vintage is by my count in error as well...Oh Well!

[St. George]

The only 'round-toe' holsters I've ever seen are pommel holsters - and those have a metal 'toe'.

Looks like another maker that's telling folks that 'his' goods are the only 'authentic' ones.

As has been mentioned before - cross-referencing is a pretty good idea before a statement is made.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Fox Creek Kid]

Thank you, people. 

[Trailrider]

Howdy, Pards,

Most of the slim jim holsters did, in fact, use round toe plugs, including most of the military holster patterns.  This helped keep the rammer catches on the cap & ball guns from dragging badly on the inside of the holster.  Later, when shorter barrels and ejector housings on cartridge guns came into wider useage, a teardrop plug proved easier to make and keep the seam smooth and tight.
Holsters with round toe plugs should have virtually no gap between the two edges of the main seam of the holster and the plug.

So far as using tarred, linen thread is concerned, it is great for authenticity.  The problem is that FINDING tarred linen thread that is of top quality, that doesn't break when you look at it while sewing,  has gotten almost impossible!  In addition, most folks want their holsters to last more than the 3-5 year averge of originals, especially under conditions of moisture and wear!  The same is true with having 9-10 stitches per inch as most originals had, versus 6-1/2 - 7 stitches per inch.  The greater number of stitches puts the holes together, and weakens the leather.  Unless you absolutely HAVE to have the smaller stitches with tarred linen thread, you won't be able to tell from greater than about six feet (depends on your eyeballs), but you will have a stronger holster! (I made my first "commerical" holster for my USAF Section OIC's Colt's Buntline Special nigh onto 40 years ago.  Last year I asked him if he still had it, and not only did he, but still uses it when he goes afield up Michigan way!    )

Happy New Year, Pards!

[Dalton Masterson]

BTW and OT, what stamp was used in that fern frond posted by Marshall a little bit up? Was it a modified stamp? Think a modified/smoothed Veiner would work? Been toying with that one on scrap, but cant get the right look. Thanks. DM

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I haven't tried to duplicate that pattern, but it does slook like a plain veiner or such. Here's a complete photo of that holster.

[Buck Stinson]

Research is a wonderful thing.  These folks should try it sometime.  I've read what they have to say on their web site and I think they should check their facts and stop pounding sand up everybody's tailpipe.   If they knew half as much about vintage gun leather as they say they do, then they should write a book and stop putting down all the hard work and research that went into "Packing Iron".  I don't know much about military items, but I do have a 45 year collection of vintage frontier gun leather.  Most of my collection contains items from the California Gold Ruch period to around 1900.  To say that "the majority of civilian gunleather pictured in Packing Iron is after 1900" is rediculous.  If they would bother to check any historical information on the makers names listed in this book, they would never have made such a statement.   In Part 2 "Civilian Gunleather" in Packing Iron, there are over fifteen photos of original maker marked items from my collection.  I had no part in writing the book, but because I also have a large collection of vintage saddle shop catalogs, catalog advertizing cards and saddle shop paper work dating back to 1865, I was asked on several occasions for historical data.   The items pictured in this book are but a minute fraction of the stuff that still exists.  These pieces are not even the best of the best, but instead show the styles and variety of what was common on the frontier.  Thread was not all the same, stitch spacing was not all the same, muzzle plugs were not all the same and not all leather came from the same place.  Sewing machines were introduced in this country in the early 1850's and those saddle and harness shops that could afford them, used them. 

Adios,
Buck

[Dalton Masterson]

Hey Buck, you dont happen to have the Rice, Plum Creek Nebraska one do you? DM

The guys on that site make me feel like they are talking Waaaay down to me. I dont think I would order from them just on that. Kind of aggressive in their demeanor. DM

[Buck Stinson]

Dalton,
Did you receive my email yesterday?  Let me know.

Adios,
Buck

[Dalton Masterson]

Buck, I sent you a reply, but here it is if you didnt get it.

"This one is on page 106 of Packing Iron. Made by L. Kipper and Sons, Atchison Ks, but has the name W.F. Rice Plum Creek Neb. stamped on it. I was hoping if you had it, I could get some more pictures as I would like to replicate it for our local museum here. We live in Lexington, which used to be Plum Creek, Ne.
It says Joe Gish collection, but on CAS who knows who is who?"

Thanks a bunch! DM

[St. George]

You won't find Joe Gish in the C&WAS world.

He's a long-time, serious collector of Old West memorabilia, from Fredericksburg, Texas.

He's opened a lot of his collection to the public at his private museum.

Gish maintains a large private museum, no entry fee, no donations, and is willing to give everyone a private tour, though he prefers those individuals who are seriously interested in Old West history.

Gish has been collecting since the 1940s with his main interest being silent movie westerns, 'real' cowboy equipment, and Texas Rangers.
His large museum houses thousands of items - saddlery, firearms, Indian artifacts, movie posters, rare leather, as well as uniforms, badges.

If it's pre-war Western, it's probably in the museum, and if you're in the San Antonio area - I recommend a visit.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Buck Stinson]

Dalton,
St. George is right.  I first met Joe when he was working for Sears in McAllen, Texas.  We used to trade back and forth all the time but after he moved to Fredericksburg and opened the museum, he doesn't sell much any more.  I have a lot of items he used to own and he has a lot of stuff I used to have and wish I still had.  Maybe I misunderstood your earlier question.  I thought you were taking about a holster made by a maker named Rice in Plum Creek, Nebraska.  I didn't realize you were taking about the Kipper & Sons holster in Packing Iron. 

As far as round muzzle plugs in Slim Jim holsters are concerned, I would respectfully disagree with the idea that "most civilian Slim Jims were made with round muzzle plugs.  I have nearly 30 original period Slim Jims in my collection and over half of them have muzzle plugs.  NONE of them are round, not one.  Now I'm not saying that some maker at sometime didn't put a round plug in the toe of a Slim Jim he had on the bench, but as a standard production method, I've never seem one.  Some of my examples are shown below.


Left to Right

Maker Marked   John Moore, Saddler,  Independence, Mo.                     (Left hand for 1851 Colt Navy)
Maker Marked    E.L. Gallatin & Co, Maker, Denver                                 (Left hand for 1860 Colt Army)
Maker Marked    E.L. Gallatin   Denver                                                  (Left hand for Colt Baby Dragoon)
Unmarked                                                                                        (Right hand for 1851 Colt Navy)
Unmarked                                                                                        (Right hand for Colt 1st model Dragoon)


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[Fox Creek Kid]

Buck, I sent you an e-mail years ago with a photo of a Mexican wearing quite possibly the coolest fabric embroidered slim jim I've ever seen in a photo. It held a S&W American and was from True West magazine. If I remember correctly you said that in your opinion these fabric embroidered holsters were from a later period in the West. Correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks for the heads up on the real dope concerning the slim jims. I don't think a lot of people here have quite yet figured out who you are.  Killed any buffalo lately with that ol' '76? 

P.S. I really wish you'd post some more photos of your original slim jim collection as I for one just love these photos!!! 

[St. George]

That embroidery is made from cactus fibers - and it's called 'piteado'.

While long a staple of decorative devices on Mexican-made articles - its use on holsters 'seems' to've become popular in the 1890's, and there are excellent examples from the 1920's.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!