Question About Buttons For Officers and Enlisted

Started by Rancid Roy, December 26, 2007, 10:59:48 PM

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Rancid Roy

I know the United States Cavalry officers of circa 1861 to 1889 wore buttons with the "C".

Did so the enlisted men, specifically a First Sergeant? My Randy Steffan books seem to indicate "yes".

Any other sources or opinions?

Thanks for the replies.
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Captain Barrett

Rancid,

The answer is no. All Enlisted troops wore the Arms of the United States button, no matter the Branch. Officer wore the buttons based on their Branch...
Your humble, obedient servant,

David P. Barrett
Captain, 1st U.S. Infantry Regiment
Regimental Adjutant

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Rancid Roy

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Pitspitr

Quote from: Captain Barrett on December 27, 2007, 12:13:00 AM
The answer is no. All Enlisted troops wore the Arms of the United States button, no matter the Branch.
Issued items were as Capt. Barrett said.
BUT.... there is evidence that occassionally a NCO would have a piece of clothing custom made and have officer buttons put on it.
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Jerry M. "Pitspitr" Davenport
(Bvt.)Brigadier General Commanding,
Grand Army of the Frontier
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St. George

Had he been wearing Officer's buttons - they'd've made him remove them, though a so-modified uniform 'could' feature a more heavily gilded General Service button.

Army Regulations were respected, and while the 'Officer grade' of fabric was overlooked - the other touches weren't.

Enlisted men drew from Quartermaster supplies, while Officers could buy from same, at Government cost - most junior Officers did - as a cost-saving measure, and to blend in to the massed troops while attacking.

The more ornate uniforms were seen where no rounds were hitting leaders, and are generally of early-war use.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

"It Wasn't Cowboys and Ponies - It Was Horses and Men.
It Wasn't Schoolboys and Ladies - It Was Cowtowns and Sin..."

Pitspitr

This is NOT to imply that it was common enough to warrant modern re-enactors to copy this practice!


Page 169 The U.S. Army in the West, 1870-1880 by Douglas McChristian
Caption Reads "126. Sergeant Benjamin C. Criswell, who served in B company, Seventh Cavalry, from 1870 to 1878. In this view, probably taken about 1875-76, Criswell wears a tailor-made version of the 1874 blouse. It is distinguished by a short, squared collar and a double-row stitching along the front opening. Note that he has added officers' buttons, a not-uncommon practice among NCO's. The chevrons appear to be the pre-1872 style (Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument)"
I remain, Your Ob'd Servant,
Jerry M. "Pitspitr" Davenport
(Bvt.)Brigadier General Commanding,
Grand Army of the Frontier
BC/IT, Expert, Sharpshooter, Marksman, CC, SoM
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Rancid Roy

All quite intersting and probably all quite correct depending on who your commanding officer was or who was GIVING the orders. I have seen an Officer's sack coat purchased [or "borrowed"] by an enlisted man in the Civil War who wore it on campaign.

I am reading a book on Crook's campaign after the Little Bighorn/Greasy Grass and Crook's troops eventually met up with Terry's to "snare" the hostiles. They found no Indians when they met.

However the author [an officer in Crook's command] comments on the "clash" of attire the day they met. Almost all of Crook's men [including Crook] where in civilian/sutler attire with a smattering of uniform items scattered through the ranks. He even stated that not a single officer was wearing any sort of rank identification. Whereas Terry's men were all pretty much in regulation uniforms. He stated it was quite a contrast.

I have read that the Civil War stocks were so vast and the orders explicit that they be used up that even though there were several uniform changes until the days of "Khaki" that it was not unusual to still see C.W. issue into the 1880's.
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Quote from: Rancid Roy on January 03, 2008, 01:32:38 PM
All quite intersting and probably all quite correct depending on who your commanding officer was or who was GIVING the orders.


Quite true - not only then but now.  Apparently Ranald Mackenzie, as commander of the 4th Cavalry, was pretty strict about regulation uniforms, even on campaign according to Lt Robert Carter.   Patton was well known for requiring men to wear ties, keep their boots shined, and wearing only authorized regulation clothing - though he was fond of expressing his individuality (and the perks of being a general officer) in doing otherwise.  When I was in Iraq I saw troops all dressed and equipped the same- everything worn exactly the same way - while others were far less "uniformed".  Much depends on what the commanding officer wants and/or allows.

Utley, in Frontiersmen in Blue, quoted one soldier who said men on campaign wore corduroy trousers and hickory shirts.  Other soldiers have noted they wore a combination of old uniforms, civilian clothing, and buckskins.  Most officers wore no rank - not really necessary when you consider that they were either well known by the men, or conducted themselves in a manner that obviously identified them as officers. 

I've often thought that at our Musters we should see similar non-uniform attire on the firing line, but I suspect we don't because otherwise we'd look just like most of the "cowboys" we shoot with and we prefer the distinctive soldier-like look imbedded in our minds by John Ford, et al.

US Scout
Bvt Brig Gen 

Pitspitr

Quote from: Rancid Roy on January 03, 2008, 01:32:38 PM
I am reading a book on Crook's campaign after the Little Bighorn/Greasy Grass and Crook's troops eventually met up with Terry's to "snare" the hostiles.

Campaigning With Crook, by King?
I remain, Your Ob'd Servant,
Jerry M. "Pitspitr" Davenport
(Bvt.)Brigadier General Commanding,
Grand Army of the Frontier
BC/IT, Expert, Sharpshooter, Marksman, CC, SoM
NRA CRSO, RVWA IIT2; SASS ROI, ROII;
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Rancid Roy

Yes sir Pitspitr....it's an interesting read.

"I've often thought that at our Musters we should see similar non-uniform attire on the firing line, but I suspect we don't because otherwise we'd look just like most of the "cowboys" we shoot with and we prefer the distinctive soldier-like look imbedded in our minds by John Ford, et al."

Dead on U. S. Scout....Sir. My attire is a mixture of John Ford, history, and my fantasy. But, based on my limited readings what I wear at a shoot is all a very possible reality of what was worn in the past.

If I was to appear at a true re-enactment, or a bonafide living history program, I might dress up a bit more, but again it would depend on whom I am appearing to be. If I am with Crook on the Rosebud or the later Yellowstone, it would be almost all buckskins.

Regards, Rancid Roy [soon to be a Major in the United States Cavalry] {and a First Sergeant too!}
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Pitspitr

Quote from: Rancid Roy on January 04, 2008, 12:39:58 AM
Yes sir Pitspitr....it's an interesting read.
Yes, it is!
It's the only modern reprint in my King collection, the rest are originals. That way I can read it over and over again without worrying about damaging it.
If you enjoyed it you might also enjoy Campaigning With King by Hedren, Life and Manners in the Frontier Army by Knight, A Dose of Frontier Soldiering by Bode and Fourty Miles a Day by Ricky
I remain, Your Ob'd Servant,
Jerry M. "Pitspitr" Davenport
(Bvt.)Brigadier General Commanding,
Grand Army of the Frontier
BC/IT, Expert, Sharpshooter, Marksman, CC, SoM
NRA CRSO, RVWA IIT2; SASS ROI, ROII;
NRA Benefactor Life; AZSA Life; NCOWS Life

Rancid Roy

Thanks Pitspitr, I will keep those on my list. I do have "Forty Miles on Beans and Hay" and my next purchase willl be "On the border With Crook".
Ne'er Do Well    Chicken Thief

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"You hold'em and I'll shoot'em."

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