C-O-L-T clicks

[Highlander999]

Good Evening:

I just got a used Navy Arms 1873 U.S. Cavalry Model Revolver.  Love the gun, nice, used a bit, and that's fine.  But, the action seems stiff, I only hear three of the four clicks.  The click between half cock and full cock isn't there.  The bolt doesn't seem to drop enough and of course there is a line on the cylinder.  This isn't really noticable except when at half cock and rotating the cylinder to load the gun.

My first thought is someone probably did a half way job on an action job.  The other thought is the sear and bolt spring might be worn or not working properly.

I may have an action job done one of these days, but in the mean time, any ideas?  I haven't pulled the hammer out, and really don't want to, but would replacing the hammer help?

Thanks,

Steve

[Pettifogger]

Colt clicks.  The first click is the trigger going into the safety notch.  The second click is the trigger going into the half-cock notch.  The third click is the bolt dropping.  The fourth click is the trigger dropping into the full cock notch.  (Sometimes there's a fifth click which is the bolt dropping into the bolt cut a little after the hammer has past the full cock notch.)  Turn the gun sideways and slowly cock the hammer and watch when and where the bolt is dropping.  It should be retracted down into the frame and pop back up into the lead in grooves in front of each bolt cut.  If it is dropping out on the cylinder it is dropping to early.  If it is falling directly into the bolt slots it is dropping to late.  No way to tell what needs replacing or adjusting until you determine what the gun is doing and until you have taken it apart and inspected the parts.

[Highlander999]

I looked as close as I could.  Pulled the grip frame off also.  But, what appears is that the bolt doesn't really drop enough to clear the cylinder at half cock.  It drops, but not drop even with the frame as my others do...  My others drop flush with the frame.  This one just doesn't drop hardly at all.  Other than that I don't really know what to look for.  Guess I'll drop it by the gunsmiths.... 

Thanks for the input response.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

What Pettifogger meant by the bolt dropping is when it comes up from the frame and engages the cylinder. When you pull the hammer back, the bolt retracts into the frame and later in the cycle drops (upwards from the frame) into the lead-in groove and into the notch in the cylinder. I suspect the reason you aren't hearing that happen is because your bolt isn't retracting fully into the frame in the first place and is dragging around the cylinder causing the wear ring. It sounds like either the bolt needs repair or there's something underneath it to prevent it from retracting fully. I'm not an expert on fitting the bolt but there may be someone here who can tell you more about what to look for.

[St. George]

Before you head off to a gunsmith - detail strip the piece and stone any burrs away, as you carefully examine it for any roughness or chipping.

Clean it 'thoroughly' - and use a few round toothpicks in the crevices to get 'all' of any fouling out.

Oil lightly and lube the bearing pieces - reassemble and try.

Not every piece needs to visit a 'smith, and working on a single action mechanism's pretty straightforward.

Good Luck.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

First of all, is the cylinder locking up nicely when the hammer goes to full cock? If the cylinder is not locking securely, you don't want to shoot the gun at all.

Let's make sure we're all on the same page with our terms. Let's use the word 'retract' for when the bolt dissappears into the frame, allowing the cylinder to turn. Let's use the words 'pop up' for when the bolt pops back up out of the frame to engage the cylinder locking slots on the cylinder.

What is supposed to happen is the bolt should start to retract right after the hammer clears the 'safety cock' notch. Inside the gun, the rear portion of the bolt has been grabbed by the edge of the cam mounted on the hammer. As the hammer rotates back, the cam on the hammer rotates up. This pushes the rear of the bolt up, and pivots the other end of the bolt, the business end, down. When the bolt pivots down, or retracts, it clears the locking slot on the cylinder and allows the cylinder to turn as the hand starts pushing the cylinder around.

The other thing that happens with the bolt is that as the hammer continues to rotate backwards, the rear end of the bolt slips off the edge of the cam. When the rear end slips off, the trigger/bolt spring pushes the bolt back up again, so it can pop up into one of the cylinder locking slots. That's about it for the bolt, there are only two things that affect it's postion. The spring is always bearing against it, so the bolt wants to always be in the up position. When the cam grabs the rear end, it overpowers the spring and forces the bolt to retract. But as soon as the cam looses its grip on the rear of the bolt, the spring drives the bolt back up again.

When it retracts, your bolt should retract completely into the frame. It should be well clear of the cylinder. When it pops back up again it should do so briskly and make a distinct click as it srikes the cylinder. There are other fine points, like timing the gun so the bolt pops up at precisely the correct time, but all we are concerned with is that the bolt moves up and down as it is supposed to. If the bolt does not snap up smartly and make a good click, the first thing to suspect is the trigger/bolt spring. It is probably the most failure prone part in the entire design. If the bolt is not popping up smartly, it is possible the bolt half of the spring is either broken, or fractured. It is common for the spring to begin to fracture at the base of one of its legs. If this starts to happen, the spring does not fail all at once, but instead starts behaving sluggishly. Often times removing the screw to inspect the spring will break it off that last bit. Take out your cylinder and shove the bolt down with your finger. Allow it to pop back up again. Does it snap up smartly? If so, the spring is probably OK.

The other part of the equation, the cam pivoting the bolt to retract it into the frame is a little bit trickier. There is a direct mechanical relationship between the cam and the bolt. If the bolt does not retract all the way, I suspect there may be some wear someplace, between the bolt legs and the cam, so that the bolt no longer retracts as far as it is supposed to. This could be bad news. It might mean a new bolt is needed. Bolts can be expensive, and they often need to be fitted. It might mean the cam is worn. This may require the attention of a Smith.

But first, take the gun apart and take a look see. Is there anything in there preventing the bolt from moving as it should? As St. George said, there may simply be something preventing the bolt from pivoting. Perhaps a burr someplace, perhaps some fouling or gunk on the bolt's pivot screw. Take it apart and take a good look to see if anything is preventing the bolt from pivoting.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Dang Driftwood, did you get your PhD in engineering as of late!!!?  Superb explanation!!    My money says it's the bolt spring, PROBABLY.  Second is that someone has monkeyed with it internally prior.

[Doc Sunrise]

I have seen a lot of people who do not really understand how the action works on a SAA try to loosen the Bolt/Trigger return spring in an attempt to soften trigger pull.  The result is exactly what you are describing, not enough force on the Bolt for it to work properly.  When you take the Bolt/Trigger return spring off, check to see if anything has been placed as a washer or spacer or if there is debris or even a burr that is preventing full spring engagement, remove it.  Also check the spring itself for a slight arch.  It may be a weak spring that has flattened out, easy to replace.

[Highlander999]

Well, now I feel much more enlightened. 

First off, I haven't shot the gun yet.  And I won't until I have this fixed.  But, the Bolt locks the cylinder up tight.  That was the first thing I checked.

But, I'll pull the cylinder out when I get home tonight and see how well the bolt springs up when I push it down.  Then I'll pull the grip frame off again, and see how the trigger/bolt spring looks again.  I glanced at it last night and it wasn't broken, but I didn't take it out and check to see if it was flattened etc.  I have replaced a broken one before, so I sort of understand how it works etc. 

But, I had no idea what was going on here.  When I examined the trigger and the notches on the hammer it didn't look like there was much if any wear, so I doubt this is a gun that's just been shot and shot and worn that much.  But, who knows.

Thanks to all for the help and the lessons in gun repair.  I'll get this broke apart and report back

Thanks to all.

Steve

[St. George]

Get a copy of Dave Chicoine's - 'Gunsmithing the Guns of the Old West'.

Every so often, Barnes and Noble's has them - and Christmas is coming....

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Fox Creek Kid]

Highlander999, I will trade problems with you: I just bought a 2nd Gen. Colt '51 Navy & some idiot at the factory cross threaded the tiny bolt spring screw!!   

[Highlander999]

OK, pulled the cylinder out...  FOUR Distinct Clicks.  The bold drops down just like it should.  The action works perfectlly...  So, what's the consensus??  Is the cylinder out of time.. or something there stoping the bold from dropping (retracting)

Well, upon further looking, I put the cylinder back in at half cock, and the bolt still sticks up just enough to drag on the cylinder...  So, that wasn't the problem.

But, with the cylinder out, four distinct clicks (the third being the bolt clicking into place), but with the cylinder in, about 1/32 or 1/64 inch of the bolt sticks up, just enough to drag....

[St. George]

Try the advice you've been given about cleaning it 'thoroughly' - then see what's what.

Complete assembly may be causing a bit of something to slow the action, so look for any metal chips or build-up of fouling near a contact area.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Fox Creek Kid]

#1 Is the bolt spring screw tight?

#2 Remove the guts & look at the leg of the bolt that engages on the hammer cam. Does it look like someone messed with it? Are the leading edges of the cam clean or rough and burred?

It may be the leg of the bolt is not properly adjusted or the cam is rough & these are NOT tasks for the amateur. If cleaning & tightening the bolt spring screw does not work then you need a pro.

[Highlander999]

Well, I will do these things this weekend.  And don't worry, I have a little understanding of how all of this works.  BUT, much like adjusting the spokes on a bike wheel, I understand the principle, but often things adjusted set other things out of kilter.  Other than adjusting the screws/tightening them, and cleaning, I'll leave those to the pro.  But, I can look and make sure there is nothing there and a little cleaning is pretty easy.

Thanks pards, I'll keep you all informed.

Steve

[St. George]

If you're cleaning it 'just a little' - clean it a lot, and scrub the cylinder 'star' with a toothbrush, while your're doing it.

Take that round toothpick to 'every' crevice and angle - including the cuts on the cylinder.

But before you attend to all of that - and before you've really unscrewed anything - look at the parts for evidence of burring or slipped screwdrivers.

That isn't commonly seen when the piece comes from the factory - so if present - it's from someone 'screwing around'...

Stoning the high points - removing burrs - those are easy things to do, so long as you don't change any factory angles.

Use a fitted screwdriver, as well - one built specifically for use on firearms.

Then - go slow.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Pitspitr]

I got the TUNING THE COLT SAA FOR COWBOY ACTION SHOOTING video by AGI I really like it. It details all this and you can see how it's supposed to work.

[Fox Creek Kid]

...you can see how it's supposed to work.

Operative word being "supposed".    I am lucky in that I have a good buddy who can tune Colt SA style guns (no Rugers) until they feel like magic. Everything in synchronicity. All problems are usually the symbiotic relationship between the bolt, cam & hand (pawl). I have another buddy who is great w/ modern DA revolvers & 1911's but is lost on a SA style gun. Tuning a SA involves a lot of "feel" which cannot be seen in a video IMO. There just aren't too many REAL gunsmiths around any more who can tune a SA. I don't mean throwing springs into one but REALLY tuning. Colt can't even do it any more. 

[Virginia Gentleman]

Curious on how this turned out?

[Highlander999]

Well, I played with it and played with it.  Finally took it to the local gunsmith.  He feels someone played with the bolt trying to make it "smoother"..  I haven't heard back yet, but when I do, I'll most assuredly post it here.

Thanks Pards.